I agree that the idea of a parry/riposte is a much better idea than the Dbash. It feels more like a duel style of combat, it -should- be more punishing and feel like more of a "counter" rather than a "block" if it's going to be rock paper scissors. I support this, Eldar filth! Lets see it done!
Re-reply after edits: 100% agree to Paragraph 3. This is what I am trying to fix. Questionable to Paragraph 5, still seems unnecesary to have any stun at all, unless its a special ability of a weapon or something. Paragraph 6 kind of talks about two different mechanics. You use the term stagger in reference to simply having your animations end at the same time, I agree with that yes. Can it give you a half second for initiative to lead the "waltz"? Sure. Just don't need any staggers/stuns for a "free hit", because it just slows melee down unnecesarily. Just make the attack that would stagger/stun do more damage roughly equal to that free hit and we just saved 2 seconds of melee combat. Make sense? Again, can't sign off on the running away part. That is very difficult in melee, plus won't they just shoot you in the back or run and stab you?
@Zed-Avatar Would the riposte you envision be a sort of reactionary thing? For example, animation and windup time stay exactly the same, but if the bash is hit with a fast attack, the kick comes out immediately and deals damage rather than letting the full windup complete? @BrentEllison @Maspalio can we get some clarification on the wording of the rules? More specifically: "The rule is that a weapon who is at more than one tiers below another one in the force ranking cannot interrupt it." Does interrupt mean stop the heavy attack during windup or something else? Alexis' responses in the thread unfortunately didn't clarify it enough for me since I'm a bit slow.
It really doesn't matter if it is reactionary, it just needs to have a shorter delta time. Certainly that would look better. It already gets interrupted by a Heavy Attack. Just did a quick recording in the Loyalist Garrison right now, when I slow down the video, this is what I get: Combat Knife animation Fast Attack - ~0.55s Heavy Attack - ~1.45s DBash - ~2.25s Chainsword - ~0.75s Heavy Attack - ~1.35s DBash - ~2.2s Why does the bash take twice as long as a Heavy Strike? This needs to be faster. During Windup yes. They talked about it in a Livestream. I forget which one. Edit: Wait no, a CLANG can't interrupt windup. RPS still does. See the second part of the quote you just quoted.
@GodKingWashington I apologize for my previous posts towards you, I interpreted your words beyond infinity and failed to temper my own words. I must say I would really like the Bash to trigger a quick kick if a fast attack connects. That'd make it actually a real reaction, rather than something enemys bounce off of before dashing around with lockon to backstab before the Bash animation's over. I feel like Bash should also be slightly faster, because even when able to move around, a Riposte isn't a maintainable stance.
Just wanted to throw this out there - I think the best way to fix Power Fist spam is to lower the damage output of the "fast attack" to be equal to a power axe strike. A charged hit would be a one hit kill for sure and break through barriers, but there should be no "fast attack" for a power fist, at least not one that can do some real serious damage.
I dunno. I think if RPS and Force Tiers worked properly PowerFist wouldn't be as intimidating as it is now.
The thing to keep in mind guys with the speed of the bash or being able to stop the bash animation is the fact that the counter to bash is strong attack. f the bash is so short that you can execute the bash at the wrong time then roll out of the way before an incoming strong attack lands, that's going to be broken. Or worse yet, You start a bash as you see an enemy running towards you and he winds up a strong attack, you then stop the bash animation and start fast attacking, beating the Strong attack. That's also broken. So if you want to speed up the bash, we're going to have to speed up the duration of a Strong attack to compensate. The two are intertwined and either being too slow or too fast will break the entire system.
I think the idea of speeding up the bash needs to make its way through discussion. I think a cancellable Bash would be a bad idea for the reason you stated, Njord. The way to "speed up" the bash would be the following imo: - Bash isn't cancellable - One can still move around when channelling Bash - Bash lasts slightly longer than Strong Attack (ie if the axe SA is 1.5s, Dbash is 1.7s) - If a fast attack connects with the DBash whenever, the kick goes off immediately, "shortening" the Bash rather than the ennemy's blade having the time to bounce off twice. - the kick staggers, enough to charge a SA if the enemy doesn't dodge, or a FA, just like a kick performed last patch... Alas the kick would never land unless the enemy was a dull FA spammer. - If nothing connects, the kick goes off, and staggers anyone who's standing in the way. Like this, a Bash would really be the Riposte intended, locking someone enough to place a Strong attack if you anticipate you opponent correctly, but countering correctly Fast attacks. Thoughts?
The problem we had several weeks ago was the fact that knives were clanging 3 to 4 times off of the Fist Before breaking. That was broken, obviously. Balancing Force and Stability will be tricky no doubt. I also think clanging in general is still a bit sketchy, as far as not knowing when we're actually clanging, or if we're doing any damage to opponents. Not having proper audio and visual cues so we can tell what's happening during any given melee encounter is also contribution to a lot of the confusion. i.e A different effect and sound when we clang and tie, a different sound and effect when we're winning or losing a clang fight, a very distinct sight and sound when our weapon breaks or when an opponents weapon breaks with NO confusion as to whose weapon just broke. There's also the fact that it's often impossible to tell if you're simply damaging an opponent with many melee and ranged weapons in game because we dont have very distinct audio and visual markers. Heaven forbid we show too much blood splatter in a 40K game!
