That last patch is definitely taking melee in the right direction. Although.... Dbash needs a hit detect fix. And holding heavy attack doesn't really do anything, I get like.. one extra step before throwing myself forward. The range on it also need a reduct.
Agreed. Bash should probably also do damage similar to quick strike. Right now players are still spamming quick strike and all you can do against it is bash repeatedly (or if you have a heavier weapon outclang them), but you do shit damage bashing so it lasts until they decide to Jink/Roll around you and you are stuck midbash. I haven't tried cancelling a bash yet, but the point still stands. The movement is ok but its even harder to land hits for sure.
Is it just me, or are powerfist marines just teleporting everywhere? When I play SM, 90% of the melee uses powerfist and a shield, and I can just see them leaping towards enemies they were nowhere near and swining just as fast as swords.
While I really enjoy the freedom that the last patch brought to melee, I still feel like melee is a bit too wonky to be enjoyable, whether you're playing an assault or the tactical being chased by the assault. It probably goes back to the core of the RPS system. The defensive bash just doesn't do enough to slow the momentum of an attacker. Thus, we are seeing RMB spam like no tomorrow with very little that can be done about it. In this sense, not much has changed with melee meta between patch 19 and 20. Here's how a typical melee engagement goes: the assault charges in with a lunge attack (100% guaranteed if they're a fist user ). If that assault somehow manages to land straight into a bash, the kick is too slow to stop them. Jump assaults can evade that kick with such a large time window that it can hardly be called a twitch reaction. (But it's not just jump assaults that can do this--it's everyone including tacticals.) Thus the assault proceeds to RMB from behind and rinse and repeat afterward. The bash needs to flat out beat light attacks and sprint attacks--forget force values and all the layers of complication. As it stands, there just isn't enough reason to want to use a ranged character unfortunately (well aside from capping points but who wants to do that, right?) I'm not calling for a 5 second stun like we had all those months ago when the bash was first introduced, but there needs to be a stagger long enough so that you a) allow a ranged player to land one hit regardless of the infamously slow and inaccurate kick and b) the assault player needs to make actual decisions no matter who they're fighting rather than hit -> fly/roll -> hit -> fly/roll -> hit -> fly/roll (there usually arent more than 3).
I don't think the bash necessarily has to do damage, but the system needs a check in place to prevent light attack spam. Right now, it makes more sense to clang in melee vs melee than it does to bash. Clanging actually slows the momentum of your opponent while the bash doesn't. This is probably one of the reasons why the fist is being used so frequently--aside from its range and effectiveness against infantry--seeing as it destroys your weapon durability in one or two light swings.
Well yes, that is the point to stop Fast Attack spam. If we have Bash as a disengage, what is to stop them from coming right back in and spamming again? If we bash and then spam back they always will win due to force tiers. Also melee is nice and fast now, this needs to stay. If Bash counters with damage it effectively shuts down fast attack spam because you'll kill them. Essentially force tiers should only come into play with clangs. Not RPS. And give a statistical advantage, not a beats all unless he gets lucky.
That's their entire objective. We're probably looking at this from two different perspectives. As a ranged player (tactical/DA/shoota/etc.), you're really shouldn't be killing assaults in melee unless they really screw up big time or get unlucky. That's why I'm hesitant to agree that the bash should do damage (let's say the equivalent of one or two light swings if you land the kick.) Ranged should always be trying to extend the gap. If the assault makes it to you before you're able to get shots off on him (or you're flanked), let's face it: you deserve to have a bad time. What we obviously can't stand is the fact that melee can zip around virtually unaffected from hitting a bash. If the bash windup staggered them long enough for the ranged player to get 2-3 shots from a bolter or 5-7 shots from a shuriken catapult with consistency, then the melee will, in theory, eventually lose if they keep spamming and using the same predictable tactics and no outside forces intervene. This I can completely get behind. Bash should beat light attacks 110% of the time. There should be a clear winner and a clear loser with a very tiny chance you can escape punishment if you're the loser. Clear winners and losers would help retain the fast pace in melee as well. I do find it funny how I feel like I'm almost arguing with you on how to agree. hah
We are trying to get to a similar point, but we both view it from different angles. I will also say this, and I cannot stress this enough: Tacticals are Balanced warrior, equal in ranged and melee combat. A skilled Tactical should be able to outmelee an unskilled Assault, but a skilled Assault should (usually) be able to outmelee a skilled Tactical. This is how it is in the Lore, and Tabletop, and RPGSs. Tacticals are not a "Ranged" character, nor a "Melee" character, they are a balanced mix. A Tactical that gets stuck in close combat should be fighting it out, not trying to get away to shoot... To be clear, I only want it to do the damage of a light attack (or even 15% less). And speed up the "wind-up" half of the bash by maybe 50%. Now, the big downsides I see to your proposal is: Melee is slow again. In patch 19 and previous, Melee really ran the risk of always getting stabbed/shot in the back (or shabbed). With the high speed it is now, this only happens with players deliverately looking for backstabs (like myself as a Scorpion), rather than as a by-product of the melee system.
