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Mandiblasters, how do they work?

Discussion in 'Ask the Team' started by DevilfishJack, Jun 17, 2016.

Page 6 of 9

DevilfishJack Steam Early Access

Zaeryn said: ↑

I've done the last 2 and guess I'll have to do the final one as well since people are worthless and can only nay-say something with no evidence or proof of their own to discredit it.

Bolter TTK vs Dire Avenger: 1.25-sec, 6 Bolts
Bolter TTK 90% ACC: 1.5-sec, 7 Bolts
Bolter TTK 80% ACC: 1.75-sec, 8 Bolts
Bolter TTK 70% ACC: 1.75-sec, 8 Bolts
Bolter TTK 60% ACC: 2.25-sec, 10 Bolts
Bolter Head Shot TTK: 0.5-sec, 3 Bolts
Bolter Head Shot 90% ACC: 0.5-sec, 3 Bolts
Bolter Head Shot 80% ACC: 0.75-sec, 4 Bolts
Bolter Head Shot 70% ACC: 0.75-sec, 4 Bolts
Bolter Head Shot 60% ACC: 1-sec, 5 Bolts
Accuracy: 3.4-cm spread at 24-meters
Major Damage Drops: 48(or 24) and 96-meters

S.Cat. TTK vs Tactical Marine: 1.265-sec, 12 Shuriken, 0.115-sec FR
S.Cat TTK 90% ACC: 1.38-sec, 13 Shuriken
S.Cat TTK 80% ACC: 1.61-sec, 15 Shuriken
S.Cat TTK 70% ACC: 1.84-sec, 17 Shuriken
S.Cat TTK 60% ACC: 2.185-sec, 20 Shuriken
S.Cat Head Shot TTK: 0.575-sec, 6 Shuriken
S.Cat Head Shot 90% ACC: 0.69-sec, 7 Shuriken
S.Cat Head Shot 80% ACC: 0.69-sec, 7 Shuriken
S.Cat Head Shot 70% ACC: 0.805-sec, 8 Shuriken
S.Cat Head Shot 60% ACC: 1.035-sec, 10 Shuriken
Accuracy: 4.5-cm spread at 24-meters
Major Damage Drops: 36(or 18) and 72-meters

With perfect accuracy the Bolter has a slight advantage but that advantage swings back and forth between the weapons as accuracy decreases with both players; however, despite the greater spread I believe the S.Cat should land more shots than the Bolter in close range as the Marine is a larger and slower target than the Eldar, the S.Cat should have less bloom and recoil than the Bolter and have less recoil increase when firing on the move than the Bolter(ala Battle Focus). The TTK advantage of being more accurate in close range should help make up for Eldar weapons not only being less accurate at longer ranges but also dropping in damage over distance sooner than the Bolter.

Of course, if it is found that even with the reduced accuracy the S.Cat still out-performs the Bolter it could have its FR reduced slightly.
S.Cat V.2 TTK vs Tactical Marine: 1.375-sec, 12 Shuriken, 0.125-sec FR
S.Cat V.2 TTK 90% ACC: 1.5-sec, 13 Shuriken
S.Cat V.2 TTK 80% ACC: 1.75-sec, 15 Shuriken
S.Cat V.2 TTK 70% ACC: 2-sec, 17 Shuriken
S.Cat V.2 TTK 60% ACC: 2.375-sec, 20 Shuriken
S.Cat V.2 Head Shot TTK: 0.625-sec, 6 Shuriken
S.Cat V.2 Head Shot 90% ACC: 0.75-sec, 7 Shuriken
S.Cat V.2 Head Shot 80% ACC: 0.75-sec, 7 Shuriken
S.Cat V.2 Head Shot 70% ACC: 0.875-sec, 8 Shuriken
S.Cat V.2 Head Shot 60% ACC: 1.125-sec, 10 Shuriken

Mandiblasters are, in lore, used in close-quarters combat. Pistols can or at least should have some degree of effectiveness even in medium range combat, while Mandiblasters should not.

It is as simple as converting over; although, I guess simple is relative. Obviously, if you lack the intelligence or ability to properly do something it likely isn't going to be simple to do that thing. Weapons on TT have point values associated with them because of other weapon statistics that are missing such as spread, recoil, bloom, magazine sizes, reload speeds, etc. etc, which due to missing cause weapons with higher Strength and Armor Penetration to be significantly better than weaker weapons. How do you copy over a Plasma Gun costing more points? For starters it should be less accurate than the Bolter, should fire more slowly, should have a lower magazine size/shot count than the Bolter and its projectiles should travel more slowly than the Bolter's making it easier to avoid them, especially at longer ranges, all factors that reduce the Plasma Gun's long/medium range effectiveness so that in terms of overall performance it is more in line with a Bolter.

A Veteran Sergeant is a Veteran Sergeant. The explanation is literally right there. He is a far more experienced soldier than a non-Veteran Sergeant with greater skill and reflexes. When charging into combat, adrenaline pushes the combatants limits.

Strength is Strength. Weapon Skill is experience. Initiative and Attacks are speed. Orks are generally crud in ranged combat but get whipped into a frenzy in melee. It has plenty to do with turn-based vs real-time.

Mandiblaster and Stealth should be default equipment that, no shit, should have some sort of Load-Out Points cost attributed to it, just like every single piece of gear in the game does and will. There should only be upgrades for them as they are unique abilities specific to the class that help make them who they are, also meaning it should be impossible for a Scorpion to remove their Mandiblaster/Stealth ability. If wanting to focus on a more aggressive and weapon-based style of gameplay you should use the Banshee.

In TT the Mandiblasters automatically hit, not having a chance to miss that would in turn reduce how likely it is to kill enemies. . The Mandiblaster is only a S3, AP- weapon so should not deal much damage per attack and in EC you have to take enough damage for your Armor and HP to be depleted before you go Down/get Wounded, not take a percentage chance attack The Mandiblaster is also being used to add to the Striking Scorpion's melee combat and would imbalance it unless the Scorpion's default melee capabilities were nerfed unnecessarily.

Meta directly results from math, which against is why you completely and continuously fail to see the validity of my builds.

It shouldn't be "just a pistol" it should be an addition to the Scorpion's melee combat, auto-activating when certain melee actions are performed.
Stealth should have no need for a damage boost upon leaving it as the advantage of Stealth should be getting in an advantageous position from which to strike your enemy, such as from behind that should provide a back-stab bonus.

The Mandiblasters would have a small cooldown after auto-activating in melee combat, such as when a Charge Attack is performed. The range would be shorter than your Shuriken Pistol's, relegating it mostly as a close-quarters ability as it should be.
Click to expand...

Zed-Avatar said: ↑

"You asked for updated data that I gave to you and you then shut up on the matter.
I will tell you for the 12th time. Right here. Read and comprehend."

The 'updated data' is the same data I criticized in the Video. It is as true then as it is now. You didn't change a thing yet claimed "Thats old data!". You just keep copy pasting the same thing over and over and saying its correct because its self-evident. A bunch of "accuracy" numbers you added isn't testing.

I did not respond because it became painfully clear you are only trolling. You are not worth a response. You should just delete your Account.

Oh and "Meta directly results from math, which against is why you completely and continuously fail to see the validity of my builds." This is axiomatically incorrect. Meta is a direct result of real world applications that math cannot calculate. This is why you fail.
Click to expand...

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN. If either of you could show me gamplay footage with your idea implemented I will be swayed.

Walls of text and numbers without gameplay (live gameplay not mathhammer) will do nothing but make my eyes glaze over with boredom. Stop insulting each other and either talk about mandiblasters or get out.

DevilfishJack, Aug 8, 2016

#51
Zed-Avatar Zed-Avatar Preacher

DevilfishJack said: ↑

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN. If either of you could show me gamplay footage with your idea implemented I will be swayed.

Walls of text and numbers without gameplay (live gameplay not mathhammer) will do nothing but make my eyes glaze over with boredom. Stop insulting each other and either talk about mandiblasters or get out.
Click to expand...

Zed-Avatar said: ↑

I believe the best utilization of Mandiblasters would be to fire in Synchronicity with the Pistol and simply increase its damage output. No extra buttons required, no extra planning/combo, just melee as you will and gain that damage bonus.
Click to expand...

Good enough?

Zed-Avatar, Aug 9, 2016

#52
DevilfishJack Steam Early Access

Zed-Avatar said: ↑

Good enough?
Click to expand...

Much better. I don't agree with your idea, but the presentation is much more digestible.

DevilfishJack, Aug 9, 2016

#53
Zed-Avatar Zed-Avatar Preacher

DevilfishJack said: ↑

Much better. I don't agree with your idea, but the presentation is much more digestible.
Click to expand...

This was my presentation on page 3, twas Zaeryn that began the walls.

On a side note, I am ok with the MandiBlasters auto firing during melee strikes as well. I don't see any need for extra effects, unless a "unique" MandiBlaster gets something like that instead of damage.

Zed-Avatar, Aug 9, 2016

#54
DevilfishJack Steam Early Access

Zed-Avatar said: ↑

This was my presentation on page 3, twas Zaeryn that began the walls.

On a side note, I am ok with the MandiBlasters auto firing during melee strikes as well. I don't see any need for extra effects, unless a "unique" MandiBlaster gets something like that instead of damage.
Click to expand...

I loath to surrender any control of an in game function. I am personally more engaged when I am more or less responsible for what my character is doing.

DevilfishJack, Aug 12, 2016

#55
Zaeryn Zaeryn Master

Zed-Avatar said: ↑

"You asked for updated data that I gave to you and you then shut up on the matter.
I will tell you for the 12th time. Right here. Read and comprehend."

The 'updated data' is the same data I criticized in the Video. It is as true then as it is now. You didn't change a thing yet claimed "Thats old data!". You just keep copy pasting the same thing over and over and saying its correct because its self-evident. A bunch of "accuracy" numbers you added isn't testing.

I did not respond because it became painfully clear you are only trolling. You are not worth a response. You should just delete your Account.

Oh and "Meta directly results from math, which against is why you completely and continuously fail to see the validity of my builds." This is axiomatically incorrect. Meta is a direct result of real world applications that math cannot calculate. This is why you fail.
Click to expand...

The "old data" you pointed out was in regards to the Plasma Gun, which I told you was old data, then you asked for more recent data and while posting the link to my thread told you I didn't have stats posted for Plasma weapons yet but gave you in the conversation a quick rundown of how they would work using my builds.

Accuracy values is testing because it finds out what the TTKs would be for weapons depending on differing accuracy values(AKA accounting for differing player skill levels).

You did not respond because you were completely baffled and didn't know how to.

Meta cannot exist without math because without numbers/statistics to give value to functions those functions cannot occur and no Meta can be developed. As the numbers of the particular setting/whatever change so too does the Meta. Your level of fail makes me very sad indeed.

DevilfishJack said: ↑

I loath to surrender any control of an in game function. I am personally more engaged when I am more or less responsible for what my character is doing.
Click to expand...

The Mandiblasters are supposed to be an addition to the Scorpion's melee capabilities so having it auto-activated by certain melee actions frees you up to be more engaged in the fight itself. It also keeps the ability from needing to be assigned to a button, which console controllers have a limit on.

Zaeryn, Aug 17, 2016

#56
Zed-Avatar Zed-Avatar Preacher

Zaeryn said: ↑

The "old data" you pointed out was in regards to the Plasma Gun, which I told you was old data, then you asked for more recent data and while posting the link to my thread told you I didn't have stats posted for Plasma weapons yet but gave you in the conversation a quick rundown of how they would work using my builds.

Accuracy values is testing because it finds out what the TTKs would be for weapons depending on differing accuracy values(AKA accounting for differing player skill levels).

You did not respond because you were completely baffled and didn't know how to.

Meta cannot exist without math because without numbers/statistics to give value to functions those functions cannot occur and no Meta can be developed. As the numbers of the particular setting/whatever change so too does the Meta. Your level of fail makes me very sad indeed.

The Mandiblasters are supposed to be an addition to the Scorpion's melee capabilities so having it auto-activated by certain melee actions frees you up to be more engaged in the fight itself. It also keeps the ability from needing to be assigned to a button, which console controllers have a limit on.
Click to expand...

No.

Whitefox550 likes this.

Zed-Avatar, Aug 17, 2016

#57
Zed-Avatar Zed-Avatar Preacher

DevilfishJack said: ↑

I loath to surrender any control of an in game function. I am personally more engaged when I am more or less responsible for what my character is doing.
Click to expand...

Lets call it a Smart MandiBlaster for default. Fires on its own. Later have alternate versions that are manually fired with a cooldown, maybe with other special effects, fair?

Zed-Avatar, Aug 18, 2016

#58
DevilfishJack Steam Early Access

Zed-Avatar said: ↑

Lets call it a Smart MandiBlaster for default. Fires on its own. Later have alternate versions that are manually fired with a cooldown, maybe with other special effects, fair?
Click to expand...

This could work, but it is likely given past bE design, that non-smart item users will be at a severe disadvantage in most situations.

DevilfishJack, Aug 18, 2016

#59
Zed-Avatar Zed-Avatar Preacher

DevilfishJack said: ↑

This could work, but it is likely given past bE design, that non-smart item users will be at a severe disadvantage in most situations.
Click to expand...

Sure, but if that is balanced by higher burst or status effect, should be fair no?

Zed-Avatar, Aug 18, 2016

#60

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