I think we need a serious discussion about proper allocations of health across classes. Here's what we have for baselines, with no mitigation because currently pen/toughness is equal by default. Eldar DA/SH/War EHP: 225 HB EHP: 230 SS EHP: 250 FD EHP: 265 DR EHP: 285 LSM/CSM Tact/Dev/Traitor/Havoc EHP: 300 (200/100) JPA/Apo/Sorc EHP: 275 (200/75) GA EHP: 340 TA EHP: 320 Orks Shoota/Loota: 325 Stormboy: 300 Slugga: 345 Painboy: 275 The first problem we can pick out is Eldar's point cap unit and main ranged infantry, the Dire Avenger, has the same EHP as their air assault and support class. Their ground assault class has just 5 EHP more. AT has a whopping 40 bonus, and the heavy has 60 more! Comparing that to marines, We have a ballpark difference of 25 EHP up or down, with the outlier being LSM GA for some reason. Orks also follow the same trend of 25 EHP, but oddly the Dok has -50 compared to the 25 for Stormboy. SUGGESTED REBALANCE: 300 EHP across all races/factions as a baseline. We're in a realm of <2s TTK at the moment and everyone would probably agree that we can get far more done normalizing to some asymmetrical, symmetrical values. Eldar are supposed to be fragile and rely on advanced armor and agility. The devs have said this. Because of this they also lost some armor by default in the last patch, and they are MUCH faster in game, so we'll take off 50 armor for the agility bonus. Here's my suggested changes: SH/War EHP: 225 (150/75) DA/FD EHP: 250 (150/100) HB EHP: 275 (150/125) DR/SS EHP: 300 (150/150) NOTE: It was literally just an afterthought as I was getting ready to post that I remembered they have the agility bonuses. That is why it's tacked on. Marines are bulky and heavily armored. They're meant more for skirmishing and endurance than straight up assault and combat. They're called 'tactical' marines for a reason. Oddly enough, marines are the yard stick and in pretty good shape, though keeping with the trend of heavy weapons and ground assaults being sturdier, here's our model. JPA/Apo/Sorc EHP: 275 (200/75) Tact/Traitor EHP: 300 (200/100) GA/TA EHP: 325 (200/125) Dev/Havoc: 350 (200/150) Orks are burly brutes with ramshackle armor and an astounding natural resilience. That's also why they get the reduced headshot damage. Painboy/Stormboy: 275 (225/50) Shoota: 300 (225/75) Slugga: 325 (225/125) Loota: 350 (225/125) Thoughts/opinions? Changelog: Herp, math is hard. Fixed SH/War 250->225 value. Organized layouts better? Not that this should have been confusing at all. Now ordered from Support -> Troops -> Melee -> Heavy because lowest to highest EHP.
As a first thought, I do like it. Note that you gave 250 EHP to SH/warlock but it's really 225 in the details. I agree with the 225 value. I agree with the rest, but I'm concerned about the StormBoy and Painboy. I see where the balance in that, but the low armour for Stormboy doesn't really allow them to have a skirmishing playstyle.... Dunno. But I like this suggestion.
Yeah, you purposely did not keep order convention so Ork players wouldn't notice how hard you are nerfing them compared to space marines.........here let me fix that for you. Tact 300 - 300 Shoota JPA/Apo 275 - 275 Storm/Pain GA 325 - 325 Slugg Dev 350 - 350 Loota As we can see clear favoritism for Space marines. Ork weapons/animations generally (not all) are inferior to the space marine ones. So in a straight out gunfight with equal skilled players Orks will lose always. Just an opinion, but Orks should have higher starting HP on their assault classes (shoota, slugg, and storms)
I've said before; in the current meta where there are various ailments out there, I'd rather have a bigger HP pool to soak it. That's the advantage over armor. As it stands I see more Klaw Stormboys than I do JPAs with fists.
I'm sorry that it appeared confusing to you, and have adjusted the orders to better line up. As for favoritism, u wot m8, I just said this is gonna be asymmetrical, symmetrical balance. I didn't give anyone more or less than anyone else and I tweaked out the odd discrepancies (like how GA for LSM has 20 EHP over TA on CSM. Totally favoring marines!)
I like the idea, but with Fire Dragons having Heavy Aspect Armour, I suspect some purists (and possibly Games Workshop) might take exception to them having less armour than the Banshee, who sports only the regular kind. Better for the Banshee Scream to be their 'armour', interrupting the target's ability to fire their ranged weapon for a short time to allow closing. I think I would quite like the interrupt to only work when facing the direction from which the scream originated (in other words, the Banshee can run up the tunnel her scream created without being shot, but the target can still shoot outside the tunnel). I'd also prefer armour values are consistent and health changes. I don't know why bE have done it the other way around. It's more plausible that a melee fighter will spend more time toughening up than one who also spends time practicing at range, using jump packs or fighting off the insidious influence of the warp taint. Less plausible their standard equipment includes different grades of armour. Especially for the Imperium, given how standardised their whole system is (furries and emos aside).
I have three... sore issues, as it were, with this model. Some of which are solvable within EC's framework and some...probably not, realistically. Firstly, Toughness makes things work opposite to how they should. Banshees have 'weak' (strength 3) Power Swords and Scorpions have 'strong' (strength 4) Chainswords. The abiding 40k logic resulting from this is that you take Banshees against 'Armour opponents' and Scorpions against low-armour 'toughness' opponents. Like, say, Orks. In EC, this is reversed, and high-penetration weapons are selected for against Tough opponents (Orks, MoN). This is probably not solvable within EC's framework, which is sad - because it's a total inversion of 40k's "base logic" and confuses the hell out of the substantial proportion of new players who come "from 40k". At least not without making LSM and 'base' Traitors the 'Toughness' factions, Eldar the 'Armour' faction (bear with) and Orks the 'Zoggloads of Health Points' faction. (Sidenote: buff Painboyz. Like, anyway.) Thus high-AP weapons are for Marines, Orks need high-damage HP-strippers to put down, and Eldar are dicks relying on a regenerating defense. Usefulness of Toughness/ArmourHP/HealthHP would need to be looked at as a result, obviously. Plus Chaos being a bit oddball by being able to 'adjust defence' with Marks. Secondly, Eldar should have two "lines" of armour/toughness/EHP. The Heavy Aspects - Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, and the rest. T̶e̶c̶h̶n̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶n̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶H̶e̶a̶v̶y̶ ̶A̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶s̶ ̶'̶s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶'̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶c̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶o̶o̶s̶t̶ ̶-̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶H̶e̶a̶v̶y̶ ̶A̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶A̶r̶m̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶c̶l̶u̶d̶e̶s̶ ̶F̶l̶e̶e̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶F̶o̶o̶t̶.̶Obviously EC is not TT, and having a Banshee have the same EHP as a Swooping Hawk would cause issues, unless you did something truly interesting with the Scream. However, I do think that the Eldar classes should follow the above line to some degree. Heavy Aspect > Normal Aspect > Swooping Hawk = Warlock, perhaps. If you then need to either reduce or negate the speed advantages for Scorpions and Dragons, that can be done - possibly by just removing it and giving both the "Catchup Wargear" that Dark Reapers currently have. Thirdly. The Ork headshot resistance bonus is a problem. This is because it doesn't balance evenly. I'm 100% willing to believe that it balances Orks' larger headboxes against Marines of either stripe. What it doesn't do is balance it against Eldar. Assuming sensible loadouts, not made by myself, it takes a Shoota 1.0s to kill a Dire Avenger with bodyshots. It takes a Dire Avenger 1.04s to kill a Shoota with 100% headshots. That is, frankly, bullshit. You can't balance a faction around headshots and then give another faction near-immunity to said headshots and expect things not to break. The solution, imo, is to remove the Ork headshot resistance and simply exclude the Gob from the headbox. Orks don't suffer Huge Head Syndrome anymore, and at the same time headshot-reliant builds/weapons/entiredamnfactions aren't disproportionately screwed.
They can augment the 'durability' aspects via the toughness trait. I had made a thread months ago about how toughness vs armor is stupid in EC compared to how it could have functioned based on TT values but this is the way they wanted to do it, so that's how we're gonna have to deal with it.
Don't worry, I agree about the stupid disconnects from how things are represented in canon, fluff, TT, and here in EC. 5+ shots on rear armor to kill a Rhino with a Lascannon is retarded beyond comprehension.
I don't know where you're getting this from. Heavy Aspect Armour is simply a 3+ Armour Save, it has no other effect. Striking Scorpions and Fire Dragons both have fleet. The only Eldar class in EC that should not have fleet is the Dark Reaper, as they instead have Slow and Purposeful, however Dark Reapers already do not benefit from the increased movement speed that other Eldar do, unless they buy a very expensive piece of war gear.
