My apologies. I got distracted by other people's posts. An SM in power armour weighs around half ton (1000-1100 pounds). But as I have said before the suit counters the weight that the wearer bears. It does not negate that weight nor mass, the latter being the pertinent point (weight and mass are not the same thing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass I know about SM training. But you can't train someone to defy the laws of Inertia. Not even a Space Marine. The braking distance of a car travelling at 30mph is 45ft (which doesn't include the time taken to react). I asked for a SM braking distance of 8-10ft. I have given you real-world scientific reasons for this. I have given you game balance reasons for it. And I have given you playability reasons. And you seem to disagree simply because you dislike the idea. And by the way the Deathwatch RPG is not 'True' knowledge. It is a product of Fantasy Flight produced under licence. Its individual pieces of information can only be "True" if those pieces do not contradict information produced by GW or its subsidiaries. That is the nature of GW's Intellectual Property. From Index Astartes: Rites Of Initiation: Considering its supporting somewhere in the region of 500 pounds body weight whilst performing in combat conditions, the skeleton would have to be strong. Yes. Astartes are Transhuman. But they are not the peak of the Emperor's work. The Primarchs are. Also, Astartes are created from standard humans and therefore there will be limits to how enhanced they can become due to the process of enhancement. Astartes are subject to Inertia, just like everything else. Yes, they can actively overcome it. But they cannot just come to a full stop from their top speed. They need to shed inertia through either active or involuntary movement. The former being by a roll, a jump, or some other method. The latter would include taking a few braking steps, skidding to a halt or by running into a solid, unflinching object.
What is your basis on the PA not aiding in countering inertia? Comparing a Primarch to an SM is like comparing a base human to an SM. It's his physiology in conjunction with his PA that we must look at. Strong is an understatement of how the bone structure must be to perform the kinds of feats they pull off. It isn't strong but extremely resilient and tension supporting,. As is needed to support a larger muscle mass. That also includes the ligaments. About Index Astartes could you elaborate as i don't have the book, yet. Also the bonestructure doesn't need to support 500 pounds, 180 kg are already supported by the PA itself. Thus any inertia generated by an SM is also absorbed by the PA. It works like an exoskeleton, reducing the burden and tensions the body has to take in order to perform at high capacity. You clearly seem to not consider these factors as importantly as i do, whilst you have theoretical knowledge concerning physics. I have empirical knowledge based on my years of boxing and kickboxing. You seem to underestimate the capacity of a well honed body. There are things a normal human is capable of, some of the most agile men i have known are tall and heavily built and very strong. It depends on how elastic your muscle is, reaction times and overall body structure, and how you move determined by technique. SM aren't bodybuilders, even though they might seem to be. They are powerhouses. You also don't seem to understand that if you know how to move and learn techniques you can do stuff that done in any other way would hurt you very badly. When breaking a run you can do this by reducing acceleration or overall velocity and take a few more steps until stopping (less energy consuming). Or you can plant a foot in front of you, twist it and your body in unison and throw your weight back and comfortably negate most of the inertia. Before anybody breaks a run he already knows how he is going to do it, assesses what types of strengths and tensions he can cope with, thus breaking accordingly to his innate knowledge of his own body and how he planned. If your body is trained in power, like contact sports or martial arts do (military men are trained for this. Fighting is extremely energy consuming and tiring), you'll know you need a balance between stamina, strength, agility, velocity, flexibility, technique etc. In fact technique is so important you can't imagine. It's the difference between running and not breaking your legs, between hitting like a girl and punching like a pro etc. A good example is Bruce Lee, he knows how to get the best out of his body and push those limits to the extreme. A transhuman bred for war will push to the extreme his physical capacities. For example if a human can lift a car or very heavy weights with just one heart and bone structure that limits their muscle size and density, imagine an SM with two hearts. Superior, not just bigger, bone structure etc. An SM can probably lift a 4 or 5 seat family car. The teenagers that are turned into SM are already superior to base humans So if you lack in any of this you are unbalanced and cannot perform adequately. Yes they can have a breaking moment (but it should be short, it doesn't take much time and effort to counter inertia made by your own body). From how your feet lands, how capable you are of redirecting and dissipating inertia (or directing energy, a boxer punches with his lower body and back, not with his arm muscles for example. Or how a boxer trains his neck to be able to absorb punches to the head, instead of it going to the brain, mouthpiece is fundamental for this etc). An SM would not run if he is not able to control that run in every possible way. Martial artists are experts in controlling their body (balance) and energy output. If you aren't able to you can't fight effectively. Thus Space Marines wouldn't run in such a way that would render them vulnerable in any way. A second too long breaking a run is a second more the enemy has to put a round in his head. Not only are they trained, they adjust to what they want inside controllable limits. When you run you don't run at full speed anyway most of the time unless that is what you want to do exclusively foregoing all else, like running from cover to cover but then they break their run by diving into cover or using an object to break inertia. In combat situations you would run, but not at the top of your capacity to last longer on the field, and to constantly be in a situation in which you have enough control to do another action or change it. 9-10 feet is one SM stride, surely on the run. Or two at most. So my initial proposal of having them take one more step and counter that inertia without problems seems to be in league with what you want. Resuming: 1) SM don't normally run at full speed if this hinders their general balance and control unless certain given situations. 2) SM have superior physiques and PA that augments their physical capacity. Like an exoskeleton. 3) They are trained to move effectively to perform all battlefield duties without losing control. 4) They are engineerd to carry those actions out, unlike base humans that are limited by their evolution which was conditioned by many factors. Thus an SM is superiorly evolved to do certain things like break a run. 5) Superior brain capacity and nervous system, quicker reaction times and thinking times. 5) thus the difference isn't in size, but exponential. Just a hint at how many factors there are involved running, one being gait for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gait_(human)
Because both him and i are interested in how SM would work from a more realistic perspective, and through our different views maybe reach a newer level of knowledge concerning the subject. I don't know if the Mad-Magos enjoys discussing these things, i think he does, i know i do. So why do you care? Also i still play Space Marine with my clan and play tournaments held each other month by the community known as the SMCA. I'm very aware of how it is done in this game.
I understand, what I am wondering is, why has there been no conclusion or agreement on this? Why has this argument been going on for this long? I think we made a few really good points a few days ago. Also. Dunno if this has come up already, but yeah, makes a pretty cool point about the 41st millennium. IMO Space marines should be around 40km average, if you take from both lore and realism to a super soldier in power armor. Stopping would be easy as stopping after a 1000m sprint, just a little slide but nothing over the top. When they run, they would take quite long but very powerful steps, almost launching themselves. Turning would be kinda like a normal person, which at that speed would be very hard for us, but for a space marine it would be like, normal. I am very interested in this, but I still dont understand why this has been discussed for so long.
Because of the amount of factors, and assessing those factors appropriately, makes establishing an SM's overall capacity a bit difficult. Thus having people have tons of interpretations and opinions. So it is natural that we disagree and try to bring our points forward. Discussions take as long as needed. Some of them are generations long.
Hm. So... guy weighs 1500kg in armor. Guy can run 70mph for 40 meters? That's about that distance in one second. I'm no engineer but my struggling mind says Momentum might argue about how easily they stop and turn. P=m*v
Sorry CupcakeUnleashed, but erroneous information can lead to some incredibly unwarranted and/or unsupported assumptions. I am not the one comparing an SM to a Primarch. I am saying you are assuming that an Astartes has abilities that should be reserved for Primarchs. The bone structure has to support its own weight as well as the internal organs, the Zygote organs, brains, musculature, and skin. That is the 500lbs. Just as your body supports its own weight, so an SMs enhanced body is designed to support its own weight. Plus I must re-iterate Power Armour negates its own weight and the weight of wargear on the user. It doe not negate its own mass nor the mass of the user. Think of a Space Marine standing on Terra in his full combat gear. then compare that to him standing on the Luna in the same gear. The weight difference between the two is that on Luna he would weigh 1/6th what he would on Terra. But he would have exactly the same mass in both cases. Therefore Mass is not the same as Weight. How would power armour absorb inertia? Inertial Dampening field? The closest it can get is shock absorbers and those can only reduce the effect of inertia. Think of yourself travelling in a car that suddenly brakes. How does your body react? How does your internal organs react? That is Inertia working on your body. Have you ever seen a professional American NFL player make a touchdown? Or a professional Rugby player score a try? They run at full speed to avoid opposing players and get the ball across the. But once across the line they don't just plant their feet and stop at that speed. They either take a few steps whilst shedding their speed and momentum, or in the case of Rugby dive and slide across the line. Why don't they just stop? Because on one hand it's very hard to do that and on the other they'd probably injure themselves. The latter could ruin the career of a professional sportsman, which is why they don't just stop, but do slow down. I have done some Martial Arts, and so understand in close combat an expert can manipulate their mass easily. But I am not talking about that. I am talking about running a distance, getting momentum up, and having to deal with inertia if suddenly changing direction or speed. Considering you haven't read the article on SM creation, you seem so sure of your facts. I have read that article, plus others, and have a good idea of the physical capabilities of an Astartes.
That game looks really boring and repetitive... and the frame rate spikes and just ... Meh.. I really hope there's more of a social interaction experience and team-play and not just some quake-style death match re-spawn and mash buttons thing..
W-what? Who cares if the game is fun or if it has social interaction or teamplay? it's about the animations we are discussing here.
