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Is the Warp and Chaos Gods limited to our Galaxy?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Dreadspectre, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. Doctor Orpheus Dreadspectre Arkhona Vanguard

    So it's widely known that our universe contains hundreds of millions/billions of galaxies. However all of 40k seems to only deal with the Milky Way galaxy. The only other mention(that I know of) is that the Tyranids are thought to be from another galaxy invading ours.

    So my question is, does the Warp/Immaterium only apply to a Galaxy or the Universe? Is there an Immaterium for each galaxy along with possible Gods? If the Immaterium IS for the whole Universe surely the Chaos Gods would be mentioning other galaxies, races, wars etc along with who knows how many other Gods existing from collective psychic gestalts or beliefs etc., have they? Are they actually influencing races across the Universe?

    Even the Imperium, who I can only imagine know the depths the Universe goes to(I mean we do now in our time to an extent, we know its HUGE and galaxies exist), seem to be completely uninterested in exploring beyond our boundaries. What gives?
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  2. Azunar, The Everchosen Azathoth Arkhona Vanguard

    I would say the Chaos Gods we know and worship (if you know how to live that is) are specific to this Galaxy, but Chaos itself is omnipresent.

    In a different Galaxy there might be a different Chaos pantheon, but it's still Chaos.

    Chaos is all.
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  3. This is a good question, one that is not often looked into. For you first question, yes and no. As you know, Chaos is the colloquial term we use for the most commonly encountered residents of the Immaterium. I say most commonly encountered as it refers only to Daemons (Daemon being a blanket term for extra dimensional, typically warp based creature) belonging to the pantheon of the 4 greater and 4 lesser Chaos Gods, those being Khorne, Tzeentch, Malal, Nurgle, Zuvassin, Necoho, Malal, and either Archaon or the Horned Rat depending wether the exist in 40k or not. There are also the three Chaos Gods of order, who are separate yet similar to the other 8/9 named Alluminas, Arianka, and Solkan the Avenger. The reason I bring this up is because Chaos refers specifically to the first set of Gods, and their Daemons. Daemons of Solkan, Alluminas, or Arianka would be classified as Daemons of LAW, not Daemons of Chaos. The Emperor, and possibly Ynnead may also count as this, with the Angels, Saints, and Legion of the Damned counting as their Daemons. This also applies to unaffiliated Daemons or ancient Daemons. By Ancient Daemons, I refer to Daemons formed During/After the War in Heaven but before the birth of the Chaos gods, which is a period of ~60,000,000 years ago to ~50,000 years ago. The best examples of these would be the Enslavers. By unaffiliated Daemon, I mean those not birthed of the pantheon. Due to the War in Heaven and the current joy fest the galaxy is, the prominent emotions are those of the 4, which is why they are practically all you see. The warp however, is the realm of ALL emotions, so Daemons of things like satisfaction, joy, confusion, indifference, and even love exist as well, perhaps with their own minor gods and pantheons! However, compared to all others, they are small, and are hounded by the predators of the warp and even some of the scarier ones in the materium (a la Doom like Tyranids and the Scarier Necrons) and further more, to enter reality it would require someone knowing of them, learning their true name, and purposefully calling them. And even if they did, would you believe this was truly a Daemon of Love or compassion in front of you, or would you think it a Tzeentchian or Slaaneshi Trick? The reason I bring this up is because if you left the Milky way, these are the Daemons you are more likely to meet.

    The warp and the Astonomicon end at the galaxy's edge, but since the warp is the realm of souls and emotion, any galaxy with creatures that posses both will have a new, different warp of their own. Without the horror that is our galaxy, they will be calmer, friendlier places, much more alike, or perhaps exactly alike, the realm of souls that the Old Ones used. A mostly safe place, with its Khorne and its Tzeentch and so on and so forth, but they will be different then the ones we know, if they are present at all. The gods are shaped by the emotions, prayers, and spirits of the galaxy's inhabitants after all, and this galaxy would most likely be a much kinder place, leading to much kinder gods. It did take the war in heaven and 60 million years of eldar incompetence to result in the 4 after all. If the galaxy in question isn't the grimdark hellhole our own is, Khorne, though he wont be called that, will be far more tempered by those aspects of Honor and brotherhood he has mostly forgotten. Perhaps he we even be able to love, like his counterpart in fantasy was when he took Valkia as his wife (well consort but close enough). These order and other such non "chaos" daemon will also be present, and in much greater numbers. There will still be threats, and the gods will as always try to influence things in their favor, but it will be no where near as bad. The warp, for now and forever, would be calm. In such a place, with daemons and gods like that...could they really be called chaos? So yes, there will be "Chaos" present. But it will not be the chaos you know. Perhaps it would even be something unrecognizable, as alien and unknowable emotion create gods as equally strange as those who birthed them. Of course, once the Tyranids come by, the galaxy and all its inhabitants all devoured, and the warp becomes as barren as the now dead worlds as its Daemons and Gods starve. And then, there is nothing, no warp, no gods, no daemons, no life, just another shattered husk of a dead galaxy, yet another victim of the Great Devourer.

    Now, as to your second question, why is it that we hear nothing of these other Galaxies, and why do none travel to them. Now, this is actually a three part answer. Part one, we are busy. No, seriously. Everyone is busy. The galaxy is on fire, 13th black crusade, Tyranid warrior fleets are showing up, Necrons are ending their power nap, etc. There is a time and a place for exploration and now is not the time. You also run the risk of running into something like the pale wasting, or even worse another threat like the nids. At the moment, everyone is too busy to even consider it. Perhaps when it is all said and done...

    The second reason is also fairly simple. Most can't. You see, beside the Necrons and Tyranids, no one possesses Faster than light travel. Now, I know what you are thinking, "But Nemesor, everyone has FTL, even the filthy Eldar!". You would be wrong. Everyone possesses RELATIVE FTL. Which is to say, the travel faster than light relative to everyone else and/or by transit time, but do not approach or surpass C (C is the variable that indicates light speed, meaning 299 792 458 m / s, 173 astronomical units per day, 186,000 miles per second, or one light year in a year). The Eldar and the Dark Eldar take short cuts through the webway, meaning instead of traveling the full distance, they cut it by a significant percentage and travel that. Additionally, this requires webway gates, which are strictly an Old One creation despite what the knife ears will tell you. The Orks either use tellyportas, which are, well teleportation and not transit, or the warp. Chaos and the imperium both also use the warp. And instead of traveling at speeds >C they instead move odd distances and rely on the warps odd effects on time to get there in anything resembling a decent transit time. Now, this is important as neither of those would work when trying to cross the gap between galaxy's. For the Two eldar species, it would require a webway gate to be pre-made on the other side. Which their is not. Additionally, it would require a very powerful gate and a new webway network and nexus for the new galaxy, which would require Old One level expertise. Sucks you just stole all their stuff and left them to die rather than make it yourself doesn't it. Whoops, hindsight is 20-20 I guess. For the Imperium orks and Chaos, there is not life, and thus no emotion between galaxies. In other words, Dark Space is a blackout when it comes to warp, in other words there is no warp to travel in. Well, that isn't fully true, but if you want to head of to the nids or outsider I believe transit will be the least of your problems. Anyways, they would be relegated to realspace, and be forced to attempt the journey at sub-light velocities. They would all be long dead before they reached their destination, assuming the galaxy didn't move while they were in transit anyways (yes they do that). This is true of any Daemons or gods that live in said Galaxy, meaning that while we cannot contact or receive news from them, the vice versa is also true. On another not, the Orks might be able to do it with their second relative FTL method. Of course, I have no idea on the maximum range or accuracy of Ork Tellyportas when properly scaled up. Perhaps they could do it, but with the ramshackle nature of Ork technology, it would likely be a one way trip. Of course, that would still begin the colonization of a new galaxy by Orks, so they would win regardless. The Tau also use psuedo warp technology, but it is even worse than the others so it does not need mentioning. Now, the Necrons and Tyranids both possess true FTL, and can travel between galaxies. Tyranids do this regularly and their migratory patterns can make such travel a Hazard for everyone else. Their mode of FTL is gravity based I believe, but very slow. They wont be bringing news of any surviving galaxies for obvious reasons. The Necrons can also travel between galaxies, and have. For example, when the Silent King went into exile, it was in Dark Space, and he stayed their until he returned to warn his race of the Tyranid threat. He and the other Necrons do not speak to other races often, so their knowledge is lost to you.

    Now the third reason for a lack of contact is simple. Their is no longer anyone to contact. The beasts of Tyran are an old race, possibly the oldest. No one knows how much their rampage has destroyed, and no one really wants to. The most conservative (and unlikely) estimates say around 12 galaxies, while the higher ones go from thousands to hundreds of thousands. Judging by their trajectory, it is the hollowed out carcasses of their victims we would encounter first. The worlds would be barren. No wind would blow and no life would sir. The very air would have been long ago devoured and its oceans and molten core drank dry as well. Millions of worlds like this, orbiting old and desolate stars would be all that is left to find, assuming of course they did not eat those as well. The warp of this galaxy would be gone, remaining only in the souls of these explorers we would send. There would be nothing there for us, except the ashes of other races ends. Perhaps there would be monuments left behind, last stricken monuments to what once was, stark reminders of these poor fools' last stands. But beyond that, these nearby galaxies are likely just tragedies waiting to be discovered. Warnings of what is to come. For if we were to look up now, and gaze upon the cosmos, we would see the terrible work of the celestial locusts laid bare. We would see, one by one, the stars gong out. To quote the Nightmare Yet to Come "The New Devourer left the galaxy entirely, within the space of three years, leaving nothing of themselves behind. They went to fight something… greater. Something… different. Again, whatever it was or is, is a complete mystery to the denizens of this galaxy. The only clue came from an astrologer, living within the Ophelian Imperium. She turned her eye lenses towards the distant galaxy, nicknamed Archos Vosh, after her father. She noted how, slowly, even as she watched, the light of that galaxy went dim. As of yet, no scholar, from any race, can explain this. In fact, most do not wish to…" In the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium, there is only war, until there is nothing left to wage it. It isn't just the transient empyrean gods that thirst after all...
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  4. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    There can of course be no single "true" answer to such a question -- it comes down to whether you believe that space has only a reduced or absolutely zero meaning in the Warp.

    Given that the Astronomican serves as a constant beacon allowing navigation towards a fixed point in realspace, it may well be theorised that the Immaterium is but an overlapping dimension, an "alternate space" where in spite of its chaotic nature some laws still apply. If ships traversing the Warp still take weeks or months to traverse the galaxy, distances between two points in both realms are anchored towards one another. It's what allows actual travel with an expectation as to where you'd arrive when exiting the Warp again in the first place. The Battlefleet Gothic tabletop rulebook talked about the concept of stable passages or "tunnels" in the Warp connecting star systems in realspace, reinforcing this interpretation.

    This in turn could mean two possibilities: Either the Warp is finite and at some point just ceases to exist (or you actually reappear at a point you've already been, in spite of travelling in a straight line), or it is endless but you enter a barren realm not too dissimilar from the empty gulf between galaxies.

    Of course, this still does not exclude the possibility that the emotional energy governing the Warp's interactions is omnipresent and just establishes itself close to populaces living in realspace. Unlike most people like Xanxas up there I do not believe in daemons having independent personalities -- in my interpretation of the wording in Codex: Chaos Daemons, they are instead just reflections of all the emotional baggage dumped into the Warp, "mimicking" intelligent behavior solely due to mortal beings feeding them these patterns by way of existing. Indeed, the so-called Chaos Gods may be nothing but facets or aspects of the Warp as a singular, chaotic force of nature, first created then misinterpreted by the fallible and superstitious people of the 41st millennium whose beliefs inform the books that describe the setting to us. In this sense, their clashes may be akin to two waves of water cancelling each other out yet belonging to the same ocean, and their identities changing over the millennia as new mortal beliefs gain prominence over others.

    But this is now straying a bit far from the original question. Once again it should be stressed that with topics such as these, there can be no single answer, especially considering that the setting does not even have an established, uniform canon. But it can be fun and fascinating to consider some of the implications and exchange crazy theories! :)
  5. Excellent summation! Due to the nature of the warp, anything could be both true and untrue, likely at the same time due to the warp's nonsensical nature. It could very well change between uses, or even during use if you are misfortunste enough. The tunnels somewhat remind me of the hyperspace lanes from Star Wars, and make a lot of sense to me. I personally ascribe to the no cams from people and Dark Soace is a hole theory, as it doesn't make sense to me that the realm of souls and emotion could exist without those, but all theories are equally valid.

    I both agree and disagree with you on the bit about daemon personalities. I think that they can have the, it's just Chaos Daemons that can't. Or rather, daemons formed from an emotion.

    What I mean by this is daemons and gods formed in this manner, even daemons of order andtheiretical ones like daemons of love, are bound by that aspect. They are props on the stage of life, performing roles, changing on an intrinsic level, and even growing or starving based on their concept's position in real space. In a way, the warp is far crueler to its supposed masters than it will ever be to the rest of us. Tossed to and from by the whims of the populace, unable to truly control or define oneself, and losing your personality everyone someone gets an idea...that's no way to live. I find it sad that those who wish to crobtol thematerium cannot even control themselves. Perhaps that is why they harbor this desire, and why they specifically design aspects and creature like skate and to be worshipped and remembered.

    Now, the reason I separated these daemons from the rest (Chaos vs "just" Daemon), is because there are daemons that are not made like that. There are things like psychnuien and astral hounds which are animals, either born or ascended into the warp, dedicated to no aspect. There are artificial daemons, like the Eldar gods of old (ignoring the True Eldar gods, Slaanesh and Ynnead) that were not born, but made. And then there are beings like Spectres and Ensiaver, who I suspect were born of souls, rather than emotion, making the souls Daemons to Choas' emotion Daemons in the realm of emotion and souls, completing the duo. Beings like this, not born of an emotional aspect, I suspect could have a personality. Though in the case of most of them they would need an IQ boost to get it pat that of a dog's. Perhaps even Daemons of Chaos undivided could have something close, due to the number of concepts being mixed into their creation. On a side note, due to their soul eating nature normal Chaos Daemons may be able to get something like a personality from the essence of their victims, but I neither believe nor disbelieve this theory.

    Of course, this is all moot point due to the lack of a uniform canon pointed out above. I fully expect them to be given personalities to be made more evil following our spiritual Leige's rehiring at GW. But yes, discussing theories is incredibly fun and mentally stimulating. It's a shame so few are interested in life beyond "muh spess muhreens". I especially enjoyed your take on it. It's always great to hear other well thought out veiwpoints.
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  6. Maensith Subordinate

    And they still wonder why Necrons are rightful rulers of this galaxy? Because we know EVERYTHING!
  7. They are not limited to our galaxy... They are not limited to our UNIVERSE!

    The warp is the multi/omniverse(or is connected to them)
    "The forms the live-things called Chaos, in their limited little ways of perceiving the omni-verse, swarmed and thrived in this infinite ocean of mind and emotion. The daemon moved with Stele. Waiting, waiting and watching for the moment when the thrashing and chattering of the quarry was at its peak. Only then would it strike, lapping up the absolute perfection of its fear, sinking in rending teeth, tearing it to soul- shreds."
    Pg.106 Deus Sanguinius
    “A miss indicates that the missile has left Warpspace at the wrong point – and this could be anywhere in any of the million universes.”
    pg.37 Adeptus Titanicus
    Thoughts can destroy or create thousands of universes in the warp
    "Here in the Great Ocean, he could be whatever he wanted to be; nothing was forbidden and anything was possible.
    Worlds flashed past him as he hurtled through the swelling tides of colour, light and dimensions without name. The roiling chaos of the aether was a playground for titanic forces, where entire universes could be created and destroyed with a random thought. How many trillions of potential lives were birthed and snuffed out just by thinking such things?"
    Pg.712 A Thousand Sons

    Chaos is older than time
    All around him, he could hear the sounds of the future, of warfare and death. The thought that he shared the guilt of the destruction of the Emperor’s dream was the greatest shame and sorrow he had ever known.
    An end to it all would be a blessed relief.
    ‘Oblivion,’ he whispered as he closed his eyes. ‘Do it. End me.’
    The barriers in Fulgrim’s mind dropped and he felt the elation of a creature older than time as it poured into the void in his soul. No sooner had its touch claimed his flesh for its own than he knew he had made the worst mistake of his life.
    Fulgrim screamed as he fought to keep it out, but it was already too late.
    His consciousness was crushed into the dark, unused corners of his mind, forever to be a mute witness to the havoc wrought by his body’s new master.
    One moment Fulgrim was a primarch, one of the Emperor’s Children, the next he was a thing of Chaos."
    Pg.757 Fulgrim
    "A terrible, ageless scream of frustration filled the chamber, echoing throughout all the realms of existence simultaneously as a creature older than time was thwarted in its ambitions."
    Pg.619 Descent of Angels
    "All I can tell you is that the warp is beyond the comprehension of you or I, and things exist in its fathomless depths that are older than time as we know it.’"
    Pg.359 Battle For the Abyss

    Schrodinger's Slaanesh/Chaos
    That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the material universe. In the Warp, things are different, for the Immaterium is not bound by linear time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. As his rival gods reckon it, Slannesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed at all
    -Codex: Chaos Daemons 6th Edition pg. 16
    That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cuase then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always exsted in the Warp, and yet had never existed.
    -Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition, pg.7
    The sheer mind-boggling impossibiliry of the Warp defies
    explanation, and those who attempt to delve further into
    understanding its ways inevitably slip into madness. Of the
    little that is known is that Warp space does not conform to the
    laws of physics as we know them.
    -Warhamer 40k 6th Edition Rulebook, pg. 144
    It is a hurning ocean of chaos, raw emotion and madness given form, where the laws of physics, time and nature are meaningless concepts and nothing is as it seems.
    -Warhammer 40k 4th Edition Rulebook pg. 122
    In warp space there is no time, no distances, only a constantly flowing stream of immaterium.
    -Battle Fleet Gothic Rulebook, pg. 85
    It is a roiling, howling maelstorm of force and energy, utterly unpredictable and not subject to the rational laws and linear flow of time in the way that physical reality is.
    -Horus Heresy Book 1: Betrayal, pg. 16
    Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or casuality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds.
    -Codex: Chaos Daemons 6th Edition pg. 6
    Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or casuality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds.
    -Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 4
    Timeless and ever-shifting, this psychic visionscape is known as the Realm of Chaos
    -Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 6
    The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space.

    --Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 6
    The Empy holding reality against Chaos consuming the universe throughout space time.
    "His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next.

    If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
    -Warhammer 40k 5th Edition rulebook, pg.101
    Physically fettered, chained atop mountainous banks of
    machinery, the Emperor's mind stretches out through space
    and time - a light in a vast gulf of blackness.
    -Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Rulebook, pg.134
    Outwardly, the Emperor is but a desiccated corpse, kept alive partly by the cyclopean, mystical machine of gold wrought by his own hand and partly by a will so powerful that it transcends the bounds of the blackened, shrivelled husk of his body. Physically fettered, chained atop mountainous banks of machinery, the Emperor’s mind stretches out through space and time – a light in a vast gulf of blackness. Should that spark of life ever be extinguished – should the Throne fail in its mysterious purpose – then Mankind would surely be lost.
    -Warhammer 40k 7th Edition Rulebook
    "Today, as for every day since that battle, the Emperor lives only by the immeasurable force of his supreme will. The stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the machine known as the Golden Throne preserve his broken and decayed body; his great mind endures inside a rotting carcass, kept alive by the mysteries of ancient technology. His immense psychic Powers reach out from the Golden Throne, enveloping and protecting Mankind across the enemy-strewn galaxy, a beacon of light in the malevolent darkness.

    If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consurning Daemons will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind. Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space - a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
    -Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg.137
    "Daemons are destruction and anarchy incarnate and they lust after the flesh, blood and very souls of living creatures. They want only to destroy, to drag any living essence they can capture back to their shadowy realm, to obliterate the material universe and engulf it within Warp space."
    -Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 144
    Daemons are destruction and anarchy incarnate and they lust after the flesh, blood and very souls of living creatures. They want only to destroy, to drag any living essence they can capture back to their shadowy realm, to obliterate the material universe and engulf it within Warp space.
    -Warhammer 40k 7th Edition rulebook
    "They are never sated. The abominations from the Warp will not rest untii they have consumed not just Mankind, but the universe as well. All will be ruin; all will be Chaos."
    -Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 234


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  8. Azunar, The Everchosen Azathoth Arkhona Vanguard

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