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Is a Slaanesh Traitor Marine for practical purposes a much better Dire Avenger?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nosfantor, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. DongSlayer DongSlayer Steam Early Access

    YOU SHOOT HIM STRAIGHT SLOTHIE ... DONT ASK ANY QUESTIONS ...JUST DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA HIS PONY ASS !!! also on an unrelated note ...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!
  2. Drake De Molina Drake_De_Molina Steam Early Access

    The hitbox was/is a problem for those who can't aim and the speed bonus came as Eldar were being EHP nerfed so it was not just a complete nerf.

    The speed bonus in this game has not a real impact since you can redeploy to cover big area. How often I saw objective without defense to see a rushing pack of players redeploying to cap it back (dropping the defense on another objective in same time). It's not "organize your defense on 3 points", it's "redeploy quickly so you can uncap".
  3. Slird Slird Active Member

    ...and recoil was/is problem for those can't control it. =) It is called "not equal effort for equal actions", simply "advantage". And you forget about "Quicken", iirc.
    Movement speed bonus is a combat maneuverability advantage, not map controls instrument. You still can arrive faster from forward spawn to reinforce your defence. And again, you need more effort, more skill to aim fast moving target.
  4. Drake De Molina Drake_De_Molina Steam Early Access

    And so they have to git gut or git rekt, I still don't have a problem to take down eldar with my CSM or Ork. You can not nerf a race because some didn't wanted to learn to aim... And since we are talking about race attribute, "Quicken" had nothing to do in, else we can add other external stats mods.
    Combat maneuverability... yay It's not like LSM are slow like snail. The advantage is minor and does not help in the case of defending or front assault, which is like... 100% of this game objectives since there no such thing as other kind of gameplay.

    In this game there is no efficient combat maneuverability except for Heavy, well because they are heavy (and they don't even have a rotation limited speed) and Hawk since they have a REAL way to access strategic positions. You can do everything any race can do, evade, ADAD, slalom evade, flank, access every point of an objective. Eldar found a way to make it work anyway and so kept their win rate, or maybe because it did not changed the fact that the major community asking for a nerf did not tried to learn how to play against Eldar.
    When we flank, the opponent look at us like we were the messia, they don't understand that you can do something else than front rushing, because front rushing strat work so easily compare to flanking strat. And that's probably why they reduced TTK, so people would stop rush in, knowing that they will not die in 1.25 sec. And even with that, Tyranid swarm rush strat still work for race with high survive ability.
    Niothewarlock likes this.
  5. Slird Slird Active Member

    You still misunderstand the point. You can't say to me "git gud" while we have not equal target to shoot. It is about any competitive gameplay, not only raw personal skills.
    Not even close. Hard to explain in eglish, but you wrong in basics. It is valuable advantage at all scales of battle:
    - faster reinforcement from spawn,
    - faster get to upper position, and leave it then you need,
    - faster flanking and regrouping for battle needs,
    - you even can use this advantage in local gunfigth, if you smart enough.
    Your EHP - valuable disadvantage for this possibilities, but you can make it soft... just "enhance" it. =)
    In this game there is efficient combat maneuverability because you cant avoid this shit from battle concept. We has limited amount of people to perform and limited time to manage their effort. This is even more valuable when you have no real combat communications and chain of command. You just have more of most valuable resource - time. If you fail to understanding this - "git gud". =)
  6. Drake De Molina Drake_De_Molina Steam Early Access

    Well I can, and I do it again. Simply because any competitive gameplay will require this personal skill. The first can't come without the second. With 3 race (well 4 when eldar were not "quicken") at a certain speed and another which had the possibility to move faster, people didn't wanted to adapt to this difference and claimed it was OP, because they could not move a mouse a little bit faster? People will whine for no real reasons when it about adapting. Modifying your loadout because you fight tough target with high resistance and a smaller HS damage bonus? No, better whine about their advantages and forget they paid for those advantage.

    Now that Eldar has swapped EHP for "Damage", people complaint because their sword deal more damage than their. History repeat itself, people don't want to git gud, so they complain about what they don't have while they have either something else or something to counter the said item they don't have. And to counter those hitbox, they only had to adapt their aim.

    So again, git gud :)

    And all of this goes into the warp since objective spawn are close enough to their objective, making the speed bonus secondary compare to a survive ability one (May I remember you Obj. Spawn are fixed and easily camped, meaning you are in a fight as soon as you spawn). Normal spawn are put so far or so close that the 1.5 meters for 10 meters bonus is either useless, you go for the walk of shame or it doesn't have a real influence whatsoever.

    And again the only one with the upper position possibility is the one which got the good thing, Hawk. You expect a DA to snipe people, with his weapon? Eldar arsenal in his majority if built for fight close and personal, that's a good point there is no objective in the clear now, Eldar would have been unable to protect it against bolter fest.
    Maybe if they could outrun bullet/s

    In local gunfight, the quick flank strat I use (because front fight is stupid with Eldar EHP) is doable with any race and without big latency compare to an Eldar, again because the bonus is ridiculously low. ADAD fools only the noobs.
    And again you talk about an external influence, that's right, only Eldar have buff/debuff.

    The concept is representative only if there is a HUGE GAP between the player and his opponent in terms of unit mobility which again is near to NULL in close quarter fight (which mean,... near to 100% of the objective of this game? And cut by more than half with the redeploy button on some case, which is the ez button, same if not shorter timer to rez). Flank work this well against a lot of players because they think everyone front fight. Eldar don't win because they were forced to use flank strat, but because they were using it even before the nerf, even before the native speed boost, and they did it well with normal speed.
    In this game where the fight is non stop because of the short redeployment timer and mobile spawn, speed is far from being a valuable resource compare to survivability and lethality
    And you still believe speed is that valuable, prepare yourself to git gud, because the day a Ork/LSM/CSM will flank you without stopping like an Eldar, you will understand why lethality and survivability have way more impact that speed.
    Niothewarlock likes this.
  7. Remo RemoSupremo Confessor

    Eldar don't use cover you fool. They charge the enemy, get killed because of their low eHP and then complain on the forums that they are too squish. :)
  8. Kurze spunkymonkeySK Subordinate

    I've run alongside non slaanesh marines with a slaanesh build.
    You literally only edge ahead of them while running.

    15cm extra for every metre covered...

    True you can strafe 30% faster while aiming - and this is the real advantage - but it really doesn't help you get anywhere quicker in real terms.
    It just means you are first through the door and so likely the first to die..
  9. Slird Slird Active Member

    "Well I can, and I do it again."(c) Eldar need less aiming skill to hit target. ASR even more easy to use in this purpose. In opposite, you need more aim skill to hit eldar. Competitive gameplay, isn't it? Absolutely fair?
    And it isn't "adapt aim" thing. It forcing to train aim skill MORE than Eldar.
    You have disadvantage for it. Speed and hitbox isn't negligible.

    33% of moving speed. How many it is?
    Average players' reaction time - near 260ms. If target actually stay in target reticle for this time - it will be "hit". Suppose, for example, It is time while you running across target reticle and it depend from your hitbox and moving speed. Apply 33% bonus speed: 260ms/1,33=196ms. It is mean most of players can't hit you. Still not clear calculation (ranges, angles, anthropometric parameters) but can illustrate why speed IS one of most valuable characteristics even in simple gunfight.
    Negate this - just negate common FPS genre experience.

    If things not going totaly bad you have more time for flanking, counter-measures, reinforce sentry squad. You need some time even to take position for spawn camping. Speed is time, not distance.
    "Enchance" (EHP\Dam) , "Protect"(even more EHP). Warlock outperform apothecary (with boltgun) when a company more than five people, iirc.
    Bonus isn't low. ADAD movement is situational, used by all factions. Eldar can prepare gunfight with one cast. LSM need TIME for personal buff to partially counter this.
    Mobility is a global advantage. In combat you have a speed. An d you CAN use it even in CQC. All faction use flanking maneuvers. Eldar just do it faster.
  10. I think the real problem is the bolter vs shoota vs ASC.

    Right now the bolter is the big winner of all the AP battles.

    Followed up by the shoota, just slightly worse, but I think is rather ok.

    Then we got the ASC wich is really shitty in most of the ranges, and is only a big winner in really, really close battles IF the opponent doesnt have a shoota/bolter with cqc barrel.

    My solution! Up the cost of both shoota and bolter by 100 lp more or nerf the weapons a bit. Say 33% less ammo (shoota base ammo now is 40 and bolter 20)

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