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In Development: Scream While Dying (TM) - Updated

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Oveur, Nov 30, 2017.

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But Angron can be nice?

  1. No.

  2. Seriously. No.

  3. No. You are totally getting banned for not following the rules.

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  1. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    You seem to be a bit dissonant here. On one hand you dont want to raise TTK, on the other hand you dont want better weapons. Just keep everything the way it is then? Not saying that would be the worst choice, but its not the point of this exercise.
    More Damage is always the better option? I guess thats why, in games like Overwatch, there arent any tanks or healers on top-level.Right now the, meta, we have is essentially taking the base weapon and stack EHP on top, because advanced weapons are balanced horizontally but still cost more LP.
    Talking in terms of a convenional shooter like CSGO, CoD or Battlefield, increasing TTK is indeed the worst idea for tactical gameplay. But in a class-based one, raising health for Tank-builds and damage and speed for DD-ones, might work.
    Significantly higher rate of fire than an autocannon, actually. For the records: Autocannons arent bad, but calling them 'absurdly powerful', much like caling Eldar OP, is often considered an admission of being a noob.
    Objectively, the Heavy Bolter is much better due to suppression.
    Autocannons are very satisfying to use and frustrating to face, but they are not greatly powerful.
  2. Arteek Arteek First Blood!

    Irrelevant comparaison. I don't even know what can possibly make you think compairing a 6v6 games about crazy hero abilities and ultimates(which widely dictate who is picked) is relevant here. Obviously when you're in a game where you can press a button to be invulnerable or stun someone at any range there's going to be other factors to take into account than just health and weapon damage. It's nowhere near the same type of game.


    For the record, thinking the absolute trash that is the heavy bolter is on par with the fastest killing weapon in the game at any range is an admission of being a noob. Just like thinking the suppression is a real problem.

    From a pure mass market perspective, the most popular shooters have low TTK: PUBG, Fortnite, Battlefront 2, CS:GO, Battlefield, Rainbow six Siege etc etc
  3. Krooza Nob Bozz KroozaNob Well-Known Member

    @Arteek I have to stop you right there, because two games you mentioned have actually ttk higher than usual (fortnite and battlefront 2).

    The former because the engagements are so rare and in between the player must have a chance to react, for example a sniper bodyshot won't insta kill you.

    The latter because it has a class system, if people died quickly, there would be no point in using any ability besides the weapon with highest dps.

    Personally, I got use to the current ttk, which is still higher than most other shooters, some weapons definetely need some improvements.

    Truth be told, if we wanted to increase ttk, I'd do it solely for ground assaults to give them an edge. Hell, I would give them back the ranged damage mitigation they had in the past. (Only ground assault, no jump assaults)
  4. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    Supression is the meta-counter, the only thing stopping me from just blowing the brains out of whatever Devastator Im facing. Fighting back under supression is mostly impossible, so you have to fall back to using cover or grenades if you dont get to alpha-strike hard enough to end it quickly.
    Heavies in general are slightly underwhelming right now(despite, on average, having the best K/D), the core of the problem being that they only function from cover. The Heavy Bolter however, as a weapon, is doing much better than any competitor. Autocannons are a great asset as part of a defensive line, alongside a HB, to get long-range kills, but not on their own.
    For the records: I am not calling you a noob, just pointing out that your argmunet is widely regarded 'noobish'.
    Just go into any thread that mentions autocannons.

    Now: I agree that its hard to compare Eternal Crusade and Overwatch...yet. I believe the entire point of this exercise is to change that. Actually, TF2 might be a better example than overwatch as it doesnt have any special abilities, but just stats and weapons, which are exactly what we are going to have.
    For the third time in this thread now: I think going low, decreasing the TTK and becoming more tactical, is a good idea. I also think doing the opposite and aim for class-balance is a good idea. Right now we are somewhere in the middle. Its not bad, but it does cause some problems.
    Whether or not it works out: we will see. But that is why we have UAT and why the players are doing this exercise, not the devs.
    One thing about decreasing TTK tho: We are having massive problems with performance, latency, stability and hitreg. I dont believe any fix could or can be done before that is adressed.
  5. Orkan Orkan Arkhona Vanguard

    This is a team based game and when people write about how bad a longer Time To Kill could be it seems they neglect how often small enclosed spaces defended with mutliple braced weapons is a core gameplay aspect due to the cqc favoured level design. Increasing time to kill will make 1v1's take longer but that is exactly the point, to bring more meaning to how the fight takes, many games have damage states and even though the fights take longer they can still be engaging - mechwarrior, Tarkov, other arena vehicle games.

    The point is that in a team based game when a player runs through that fatal funnel, and yes you will be running through many fatal funnels, doorways, windows etc you will have multiple weapons trained on you and your TTK will still be a second - still the same time it is now! The difference will be that it will take two or four guns firing on you simultaneously to bring you down. At the moment we are actually dying from damage overkill when assaulting a point. Increasing TTK can make for improved teambased gameplay as a target must be focused down by the team to secure a kill. This can be just as tactical or even perhaps maybe even more so than games which feature an incredibly quick time to kill. This makes it again more about the team rather than the solo player. I'm all for this change of direction as being able to react to damage instead of dying in a second will put more control in the players hands as well as making effects of lag, network problems etc be more forgiving to the players when we suffer spikes etc. We are currently being asked to help affect this change through tweaking the weapon damage numbers alone. That is fine, changing too many variables can often upset everything and achieve nothing. Adjusting one set of stats in a slow process is a more controlled method. I may have a go at submitting some numbers and rationalle myself when I get some time.

    Even though I would like to see other changes to the games factions such as movement speed, armour or ranged offensive capability of support classes I see this as a great start and there is a great number of various people coming up with innovative ways to achieve different results already. Good work everyone. I like the different approaches that I have read of, all 14 pages of it!
    Delgear and Grigdusher like this.
  6. Orkan Orkan Arkhona Vanguard

    One final thing people also always talk of DPS but I think DPM (Damage per minute) is a much better way of balancing weapon damage. Utilising DPM a weapon can be balanced among types and faction by using different parameters such as reload time/cooldown time fire rate etc.

    One approach could be that weapons belonging to same classes eg tac/Dire/shoota could have equal DPM but characterise themselves in how long they take to reload, cooldown, rate of fire etc. DPS never takes into account reload time but seeing how much effective damage can be put out over a minute does.

    Conversely, equalising TTK across equal classes across the factions is also something that could be considered - this means potentially raising damage for the damage dealers of lower EHP factions and lowering it for the damage dealers of the higher EHP factions proportionally. By utilising different weapon stats the feeling of asymetrical balance can still be acheived. When factions of equal EHP meet such as LSM and CSM their armour will naturally feel more tanky and TTK will go up in even with such a small adjustment to the way numbers are set. However when fighting Eldar for example both LSM and CSM will have a lower TTK both against the Eldar as well as going down quicker to the Eldar's higher damage that may account for the feeling many players have of Eldar weapons being too strong even if the TTK of equivalent classes is exactly the same on a base loadout.

    There are many ways we could explore this on UAT simply by tweaking the numbers and I'm very excited to see the direction that EC will take from here. Its not fun to die almost instantly and have to wait almost a minute to get back into the firefight (downed + respawn + running back to the action) for most players and this is a welcome change.
  7. Arteek Arteek First Blood!

    White assault rifles in fortnite deal 32 damage per bullet, twice as much on a headshot. That's 4 bodyshots to kill someone with no shield. The dps of a blue assault rifle is 192, meaning that it takes about half a second to kill someone if you don't headshot. Snipers deal between 105 and 116 damage on a bodyshot depending on the rarity which will one shot anyone who hasn't looted a shield potion.

    I think you're just missing a lot mate:p

    The forums are an absolute joke when it comes to balance debates, the vast majority of people have no idea how stats even work in the game and never do the math. The autocannon has a higher dps, overheat less, is 100% effective at absolutely any range and can kill more people before you run out of ammo. If you know how to aim you just point and click and drop anyone with a couple of bullets. It's like playing time crisis on a an arcade machine, you slowy walk foward or camp a corridor and pop heads left and right.

    Thanks god 99% of the players don't know how to aim and pick weapons depending on their visuals and roleplay factor though.
  8. Atarius Atarius First Blood!

    We lost the right to complain the day when EC changed the direction (180° turn) and we still supported it.
  9. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    Heavy Bolter and AC both have a DPS of 380
    Same spread, same DPM, AC takes 0.3 seconds longer to overheat. The effective differences are: 'The Alpha-strike potential of the first shot", "Supression", "15 Penetration". Also the AC has about 2-2.5 times the recoil at 1/3rd the rate of Fire.
    @Oan-Mkoll I love the power your calculator grants me in arguments like this.
    Aislinn and Cyborg_Dragon like this.
  10. Arteek Arteek First Blood!

    15 penetration mean more dps, around 6% more if the formulas haven't changed. I also love the fact that you need a specially made calculator to multiply the damage of a weapon by its rate of fire.
    As for the recoil of the autocannon, it vanishes extremely quickly, which mean it's only really taken into account if you hold lmb. In practice, the heavy bolter is the one with more recoil. You can practically be 100% accurate with a autocanon at nearly its firing speed if one tap it while you're forced to burst fire or brace with an heavy bolter which will significantly lower the dps in one case. It also overheats much faster. It's nowhere near as good at farming kills than the autocannon. It's not even close.

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