Finally something productive: I like the verbal warning idea. The 'halving' of dmg is interesting too, I could see that implemented in game.

To be brutally honest, PvP in GW2 kind of sucks compared to a decent shooter. SWTOR PvP is absolutely horrible, and I haven't played WAR but from appearances it seems to suffer many of the same problems as most tab-target MMOs' attempts at PvP.

I wouldn't really call these examples of no-FF "working".

As a whole, tab-target MMOs tend to have a worse PvP experience than FPS or TPS games. EVE Online is perhaps the only exception I can think of, and it has some rather unique aspects to it (namely you're flying ships in space with 360 degree firing arcs and massive shield/HP pools) that help it to work.

Also I'm pretty sure EVE Online has friendly fire, it's just not many weapons are likely to trigger it (on accident anyway, it *is* possible to deliberately target "allies" in EVE) because space is big, and because tab targeting doesn't check for obstacles between you and your target. So only splash weapons can cause it, and only if said friendly is in the blast radius. Assuming, like I said, you're not deliberately targeting them.

As I said, this is merely a side effect of how tab-targeting works (it's meant to save computing power by not bothering to calculate what happens between you and your target, your shot just appears inside them) rather than any conscious decision about what should have FF and what shouldn't. Many tab-targeting games choose not to have FF at all because of this, since otherwise half your abilities would FF and the other half wouldn't.

Tab targeting as a mechanic was never really meant for PvP in the first place, but was developed to allow massive simultaneous PvE while expending minimal computational power and bandwidth. Many games have copied the system because WoW copied it from Everquest and subsequently popularized it, but I would like to see it gradually become obsolete (outside of a way to manage multiple autoturrets, and IMO those should be given decent AI and multi-targeting capabilities) as computational power and bandwidth become more accessible and affordable.

Yes, it's a different type of game. And not without its flaws, both as a game and as an approach to combat. But it faced some similar design decisions and concepts beyond certain gameplay mechanics. It's not perfectly transferable, but nor is it irrelevant.

The only real point behind the comparison is that FF was not deemed *necessary* for mass PvP to be balanced by other AAA MMOs. And unless the flaws in their combat models would have required FF to resolve (highly debatable, IMO unlikely) that point still stands.

I remain broadly in favour of FF as a mechanic. I'm just not quite sure how it'll translate in practice to a game with a significant melee focus and think there could be some headaches. That's down to Behaviour to explore and resolve. And if that resolution was to remove FF from the game, I wouldn't personally lose any sleep over it.

For what it's worth, I entirely agree with your criticisms of GW2 and SWTOR. And tab targeting. I personally prefer twitch aiming to tab targeting as well.

But that's just it. It's preference, and I think it'd be going too far to claim Mass PvP in GW2 and WAR were failures. Many people enjoyed both, despite the targeting approach and gameplay. There were relatively few calls for adding friendly fire in any of those three games, and I doubt anyone would suggest the cause of the challenges they had was lack of a FF mechanic.

Anyway, I've made my point, and I'm not going to collapse into a screaming wreck if people ignore it on the basis of the examples I gave not being shooters.

I think we are in the same boat here bud. It's really not up to us to resolve but we can always discuss to our hearts content about it. The points you make are valid as using AAA MMOs in comparison and sometimes it is very hard to see the business side of it all but I also agree with Rasczak in some points that he mentions of FF can actually balance the game as well.

All in all the game needs to be tested alpha/beta and things need to be realized then.. they are really not even remotely worried about what FF will do to the game at this point and time. They need the game and engine to be in working order first before they actually "SEE" what FF does in this game specifically. PS2 is a great game to use in comparison since it is the most successful in the same genre but again EC will be different and we wont know much until people can play it and test it. Quality and Assurance - game studios spend tons of money on this lol.

This^ Just because Ps2 does not have a specific melee class, people that use shotgun's tend to fight at melee range. And while I think everyone agree's EC will most likely have far more melee, there still is nothing else out there right now that comes as close as PS2 does. All of this has been said multiple times.

Oh and to set the record straight, I am no lover of PS2 not at all, I think it is a horrible game and have said as much multiple times in the past. I do however, KNOW that it is close enough to use a a starting point for comparisons.

Lets be honest scattermax is basically a melee class.

I still think FF is a decent learning mechanism, if you are a sole ally unit in the middle of an enemy blob I will bomb you out of existence along with everyone else. It isn't malicious just you could have learned to flank or be disruptive in a more effective way than suicide sabotaging. If we don't have FF it just promotes shooting at allies if the threat of death isn't there.

OK. I have always thought that if you want to produce an original and successful game you mustn't even think about other titles, just focus on your main concepts and do something new, something people always dreamt of but couldn't get anywhere else. I remember reading one game developer's blog where he said that if you think about other games while producing yours - you're finished, it kinda stuck in my mind, I geuss not without a reason. We have too many bland games, clones, repetitions -all of them a big dissappointment and a waste of time.

So ok, if you say PS2 is as close to Ec as can be, at the same time there's sth wrong with this game let's focus on the mistakes made there and make sure they are not repeated here, at least this will be productive. (it doesn't have to be about ff only, this thread can evolve -no problem with that.)

I'm for full friendly fire. That said, EC will most likely have exceptions and different effects/balancing measures.

Having to be careful when placing your shots will make most people become a lot better as they'll incur penalties (possibly) for team killing if they aren't careful.

easier said than done.
actually, its rather impossible.
we can't control everyone who plays this game, and we cant control who plays this game.