As suggested by several moderators, if we can come up with a feasible implementation policy then they might consider it post launch but in order to do that...we need to actually play the game first so we know exactly how it works. So that means we got to wait about a year in which hundreds of things could change.

Again, in-game stats. The art team designed the LR like a Sherman, but they statted it like a Leopard 2.

Let's take those bolters that can't feed their ammo for example. Would you make Bolters incapable of firing, and give the ones that can 5 round magazines?

No! You slap your art team upside the head and tell them to make a model that works!

An autocannon is statistically incapable of penetrating LR front plate. A krak missile has a slim chance but needs a solid, near-90 degree hit. A lascannon is about 50/50, mostly depending on exactly what part it hit and at what angle.

Do you nerf the LR front plate to useless against all of those because the art team doesn't know how armor works? No! You slap your art team upside the head and tell them to design armor that works.

You also still seem to be stuck on the idea that good=invincible.

If you are one tank, completely unsupported, against 40 dedicated anti-tank troops, it's not because your tank sucks. It's because your driver is an idiot.

A tank doesn't have to be invincible to be good, it just has to reliably do enough to pay the cost of pulling it in the hands of a competent crew.

The Leman Russ is entirely capable of meeting that criteria, as long as you base its stats on previous games instead of relying on the military knowledge of GW's art department.

For Emperor's sake, these are the people who design walkers with completely exposed, unarmored pilots just dangling on the front of the chest. Do you really want to change everything's stats to match its art?

It would make much more sense to change the art to match the stats instead, if we want 40k in general to remain remotely playable.

I don't know, Men of War seemed to do a good job. Blitzkrieg seemed to do a good job. Ultimate Apocalypse mod for Soulstorm seemed to do a good job of making it more to scale in how each army operates minus the whole morale factor and cover system. If one developer crew can create balanced vehicle combat that is both realistic and fair then so can they.

I only say invincible because you're selling the Leman Russes as the best tank ever when they are most definitely not. The most reliable yes, but not the best. Also a 90 degree angle hit is actually not even the best because if you hit it directly at 90 degrees, your round or beam is going to be going through all of the armour instead of the most minimal unless you're talking about the angle from the armour slope and not ground as most attack angles are based off of.

This is a fictional game so I overlook some things such as credibility to if it would really work IRL like magazine size and whether or not it would jam because we don't even have psykers that we know of that can do what is described in 40k nor do we know of any alien races.

You're still basing that a Leman Russ can beat every single other variant of tank in a 1 on 1 stand off when there's hundreds of different variants of armored vehicles that can go toe to toe against it in where the result will come down to who is luckier in placing their shots, RNG, distance, crew experience, and skill stats if they end up implementing vehicle perks or skill trees (and if those stack with other players in the vehicle).

Think of SPGs like the Stug III, low lying siege gun capable of hammering tanks at medium range and destroying them. Wasn't the strongest nor the best armored vehicle yet it could take out vehicles that were stronger than it if it played to its strengths. The same thing can be said about the Sherman tank. Wasn't the strongest tank but it used its mobility and strength in numbers to its advantage to overcome superior Panzer IVs and Vs. Using the same generalization, a Leman Russ can be taken out by a Predator IF the Predator tank has the right loadout and plays to its strengths. A Leman Russ can be using the wrong load out such as a Punisher Cannon and still kill an enemy tank if it happens to outmaneuver it and then hammer its rear armour. It's all situational but nothing is unkillable and any single infantryman can still take out a tank with the right weapon and a bit of luck.

Also if you keep using TT rules then you're going to need 5-6 crew members per Leman Russ to get the same performance then. Good luck getting that many people to work together outside of a clan or friends compared to a single infantryman who just has to wait for the tank to roll by and than send an RPG into the turret seam or rear armour or even the treads and immobilize it. Or my favorite tactic if there's no reinforcement tickets, suicide bomb the damn thing with a demolition charge. One infantryman for a tank is a very good trade.

The Leman Russ was pretty much the strongest non-Superheavy tank in Ultimate Apocalypse, so that doesn't really help your point (as long as you treat the Land Raider as a quasi-superheavy, which it sort of is).

Best != Invincible either. The Leman Russ *is* the best standard MBT of any faction in 40k. Whether any tanks outside of 40k can beat it is irrelevant, because it won't have to fight those. By the same token though, just because a Predator "can" beat a Leman Russ if the cards are stacked in its favor, doesn't mean the Predator will win every encounter ever. In fact, since the Predator needs cards stacked in its favor in the first place, the LR will win more often than not.

Also remember that location and angle are two different things. Location is where the round hits, angle is the trajectory of the shell relative to the surface that it impacted.

So you're willing to give Space Marines a pass but not IG. Typical. If IG has to have every art-team derp converted into negative stats, so do the Space Marines. Let's be consistent here.

You still seem to be stuck on the idea of "good" meaning "will absolutely win all the time without exception even when the driver is a blithering idiot". You need to tone down your definition of "good".

You also seem to be running under the assumption that every faction in 40k will be staffed 100% by Korean pro FPS teams, except the Imperial Guard which will get all the 12 year old Russians and Brazillians who are staying up past their bed times. That is not a reasonable assumption to make for the purpose of game balance discussion.

Remember, the people playing Space Marines are not actually Space Marines. They're nerds sitting in front of keyboards just like us.

We've actually seen quite a few good and reasonable implementations, it's just a handful of people refuse to accept them because "But mah bolter porn!"

You need to force teamwork on vehicles and squads, you could employ a deployment system where the vehicles would not deploy until crewed correctly, and re spawn penalties on IG squads which are not full.
This would encourage more teamwork and less elitist play with 2-3 man friends only squads.

Where there is penalties you also require rewards. Full squad bonuses would unlock an heavy weapon for the squad leader to attach to squad member. also full squad would give a buff to squad selected by squad leader weapon damage, health, Armour or run speed.

A workable squad voice comms in game would be very favourable. Furthering onto this Chain of command voices communications as be key in MMO pvp for a long time. Running out of game comms, as been second nature in most games I've played for the last 13 years.

Channels Required

1, Command Channel - Elected War leaders and voted council (world wide)
2, Battlegroup Orders Channel- War leader and Battlegroup Captains (world wide)
3, Company Channel- Battlegroup Captains and Squad leader/Sgts (battle zone only)
4, Squad channel private channel Squad only (squad only)

Each channel following the directions of the war for continued assault or defence of strategic assets,
this can be reinforced by a map targeting system (I'll use the one in MechWarrior online as a example which recently upgraded to in game team comms) http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...AA84F59CD6099765A8FC98BA9CCE&selectedIndex=49

Just one for the vehicle trolls it very unlikely you will take out a Tank Head on, they are designed to absorb incoming at the front, if you going to kill a Tank, you flank it and hit it where its weaker, on the side armour or rear armour.

I can think of several other good MBTs that can beat a Leman Russ in a 1v1 and several light tanks/support light vehicles that can counter them.

1. Urdeshi Pattern MBTs, bastardized versions fielded by Chaos forces that are essentially eight-six wheeled medium tanks going without the auspex and range finder but sporting a heavier 150mm main armament and 120mm sloped armour which makes them better at long range static fighting than fighting on the move.
2. Ork Flakwagens with twin linked 80mm anti-tank cannons capable of penetrating a Leman Russes front armour outside of its weapon range if the Orks manage to have good accuracy but since in the game we get to control the weapon accuracy problems that would be affiliated with them won't be a big deal so added bonus there. Another variant with quad mounted 40mms can easily rake a Leman Russ and cripple or even destroy it.
3. Ork Battlewagens sporting 200mm howitzers/150mm cannons/zzap guns can easily outgun a Leman Russ in ranged combat once they get in range and due to the fact they have a wide range of armour, they can be from 20mm to upwards of 400mm sloped armour depending on how much metal they just strap onto it.
4. Deimos/Predator Annihilator has TWO lascannons as its main armament and then two additional sponson mounted ones that are slaved to a servitor so it only needs two crew, a driver and gunner to be operational compared to the Leman Russes 5-6 man crew. Since the lascannon has a very long range effectively the same as the Leman Russes 120mm gun, it can easily destroy it even if it gets destroyed in the process since the lasers will hit first (not a good trade lore wise since Predators are rarer but still a win nonetheless).
5. Destroyer Tank Hunters can quite easily take out super heavys so they can hands down win against a Leman Russ before it even is seen. Since if we're going off Imperial Guard, I'm also going to assume that Chaos/Traitor Guard will be implemented as it's only fair to have both. Granted the chance of running into one is very low and they would probably have a sizable cooldown/charge time.
6. Deimos Pattern Predator has a 40mm autocannon and two lascannon sponsons so it can if switching to HEAT take on a Leman Russ and possibly come out on top depending on who fires first. Also one of the most common Predator tank variants fielded.
7. Thunderer Siege Tanks are the more common variants of the Destroyer and instead act like a fixed version of the Leman Russ Demolisher/Conqueror and are more than capable of taking out a Leman Russ if they are in an ambush formation if not, well then they better hope they're already facing the right direction.
8. Valdor Tank Hunter is mostly fielded by Siege Regiments amongst both the Guard and Traitor-Guard and is essentially a stronger version in armour of the Destroyer and Thunderer but larger profile as well.
9. Minotaur SPGs are twinlinked basilisk gun carriages so they can definitely murder a Leman Russ from long range. From last lore count, the traitor-Guard managed to capture quite a few.
10. Fire-Prism Anti-Grav Skimmer can easily take out a Leman Russ from long range and in addition to its insane mobility can counter the Leman Russes highly accurate gun with hit and run tactics.
11. Big Trakk is essentially a dedicated AT gun carriage/half track sporting the equivalent of a 75-80mm gun on average unless they upgrade it and while very weak, it can knock out a Leman Russ from a fixed position before it even gets in range.
12. The Kill Blasta and Kill Bursta both sport several differing arrays of cannons, zzap guns, and plasma/melta based weaponry which can destroy Leman Russes easily and have heavy front armour as they're essentially SPGs so they could quite possibly take a heavy beating before yielding depending on how thick the armour plating is layered.
13. Kill Krusha sporting a 200-300mm main gun is essentially a super heavy armament on a medium tank and can wipe out a Leman Russ in a single hit before it even comes in range in addition to being decently armored but extremely slow.

That's 13 examples of tanks/vehicles that could go toe to toe with a Leman Russ with a chance of victory and I didn't even cover Tau or Necrons. None of these tanks need to have better stats than a Leman Russ to take it out and in fact, their true effectiveness will be the cost to field them, manpower to utilize them effectively, kill/death ratio. Anyone of these could win more times they lose in a closed experiment and in some cases would probably be more effective than a Leman Russ.

The Land Raider classes are considered Super Heavy's by their weight but their essentially just heavy tanks/transports and in some cases, their armaments are that of medium tanks.

I still don't see any good explanation as to why a standard issue infantryman can't be countered in anti-tank combat when they can field:

1. Missile launchers from long range firing Krak or any differing lore variants of the same per race to destroy a Leman Russ on any side of armour if they get a good penetration angle or hit a seam.
2. Plasma Cannons from fixed positions which can if they happen to score a hit completely negate the tanks armour value as the plasma simply gives no fucks to armour.
3. Melta guns and regular plasma guns from close quarter ambushes hitting the rear and side armour to cripple/destroy the tank.
4. Melta-bombs, plasma grenades, demolition charges being thrown, placed before hand and then detonated, or placed on it as it passes by a ditch. You would be surprised how often a single infantryman can be missed when they're lying prone in a ditch and the tank passes overhead.
5. Crew manned lascannon emplacements which while lacking the same punch of the vehicles variant can still take on a Leman Russ from long range.
6. Assault Marines/Stormboys or Nobz/Raptors/Warp Spiders teleporting or jumping in with power melee weapons or melta weaponry and simply getting rear armour.

That's quite a few ways a single infantryman could take out an asset before it has a chance to do anything.

You're using the same loophole of combat lore not working. If that's the cause then we would both have to rule out melta guns, sonic weaponry, plasma, and fusion since we can't prove them 100% as being the way they work and also throw out the Emperor, the Astronomican, Warp travel in general....at this rate just through the game out. Neither one of us can really use the design of a weapon and its practicality as an argument point because if that's the case....dem hatches be smaller than the people and where's all that ammo being stored.

By the Emperor, you're dense. Half those examples aren't even standard MBTs, they're artillery, dedicated Tank Destroyers, or borderline Superheavies. The Minotaur in fact is a Superheavy Artillery, so you fail twice on that one. Tank Destroyers destroy tanks? Ya don't say!

The point is to compare it to standard, mainline MBTs, not an Imperator-class Titan or a Retribution-class Battleship.

And you STILL insist on "can maybe, kinda, sorta beat a LRBT if the stars align and the dice gods smile on you" being the same as "better than a Leman Russ", and you STILL insist on "good=invincible, not invincible=not good". Until you are able to realize how ridiculous that position is, we won't get anywhere.

An autocannon is a vastly sub-optimal weapon for challenging a Leman Russ. It's useless against the front armor, can barely damage the side armor, and is only a potential threat if you get in the rear.

And once again, if you're assuming that all Leman Russes drive into battle with their rear facing the enemy, you are not assessing the tank fairly.

You have not provided any real proof at all that the Leman Russ is a bad tank. So it's not invincible? Whoopdee doo, nothing is invincible in 40k. Do you even have any idea how ridiculous it sounds when you say "I don't think X faction would be viable in the game unless they were invincible"?

Are HEAT rounds actually used in 40K?
I ask as I thought it was Krak (shaped charge that fires a jet of super-heated metal).

Besides that the only full Anti-Tank weapons I can recall a Lascannons, Melta weapons , Haywire weapons, and Dark Lances.
Though Plasma weaponry can be used against tanks as well as infantry.

I ask you this then, get in a tank yourself and drive it into battle and see what really happens. Our autocannons can damage other tanks. Our missile launchers can damage other tanks. T-70s and Leopards have the capacity to kill us even though we have better armour and heavier hitting weapons.

What did I list? SPGs, Support Vehicles, MBTs, and only one SHMBT at #13. Minotaurs are considered an MBT because of weight classing even though they have a twin-linked earth shaker. It's weight not armament that classifies a tank.

Let's see how many types of ammunition can be used to kill a Leman Russ:

1. HEAT ammunition, standard in all vehicles that have a standard battle cannon capable of penetrating upwards of 160mm of sloped frontal armour.
2. Hi-Ex ammunition, standard in all vehicles that have a standard battle cannon capable of damaging upwards of 75mm of sloped frontal armour not to mention temporarily blinding both auspex/thermal and visual confirmation on target if it hits anywhere remotely near the vision block or laser range finder located on the gun barrel.
3. Hi-AP ammunition, essentially their version of the Saboted AT round which is standard in all Imperial and Chaos vehicles that have a standard battle cannon capable of damaging upwards of 250-275mm of sloped frontal armour not to mention being able to be customized with timed explosive charges to detonate once they penetrate effectively killing everyone inside and/or detonating the magazine held within.
4. Hunter ammunition, exclusive to Imperial and Chaos variants of the Leman Russ/Baneblade chassis vehicles that can penetrate the top armour of a tank at its weakest point through a machine-spirit guided trajectory effectively penetrating upwards of 75mm as a HEAP round. Rarest of all rare ammunitions fielded and essentially wouldn't be implemented in the game.
5. KEP ammunition, exclusive to Imperial and Chaos variants of the Leman Russ vehicle chassis, uses the insane kinetic energy stored behind the round to penetrate upwards of 150mm sloped armour before releasing a shaped charge into the crew bay of the vehicle. Basically an RPG round on steroids.
6. Since Orks don't really have shell differences, they essentially just make bigger and bigger bombs that are to be considered HE for all intents and purposes but in variants like the Grot Guided Bomb, have AP values penetrating upwards of at a maximum of 125mm of sloped armour.

That's a lot of ways to kill a Leman Russ with just standard issue ammunition and almost all of them follow the same concepts as the ones we use IRL. If you're going to say having an SPG isn't fair, then I guess we should just cancel the Guard and take out a lot of Ork vehicles since both of them rely heavily on SPGs to supplement their infantry support and also completely throw out the Imperial Guards Tactica Command as well.

You've yet to list a single reason realistically in WHY the Leman Russ is mostly better than other tanks. I have listed several ways and reasons into why it isn't as good of a tank as you think it is. Efficiency is the main reason. Talk to any tanker and they will tell you, the less crew you need the better. The Orks can spam very cheap SPGs and light tank chassis with heavy hitting AT guns and take out Leman Russes at a much more efficient rate than it would take to field several Leman Russes, such a standard 3 vehicle Squadron. You're still basing your stats off tabletop, I'm stating them off the codex listed statistics. They list the armour values, the weight, the crew size, the armament, the armour, the speed, everything on it and yet you haven't used that in your supportive argument once.

Next time you want to talk tanks, bring a damn manual into how they actually fight and operate.

Yes they are in several novels dealing with Imperial Armored vehicles. They simply classify alot of their variants under the standard AP and HE or "shell" category but when you pay attention to what they do on impact and the general description of the shells they match the category of a HEAT round. Also, HEAP is considered HEAT in most cases but is slightly different in the tip of the shell which determines its overall effectiveness at penetrating armour.