Actually, I didn't mean to say the classes should be mirrored with minor tweaks to stats or whatever. I was just trying to say that Boyz can be more melee-ish and Stormtroopers more range-ish to suit their lore a bit more. I didn't even get into other classes or overall faction crap and diversity. But ok, let's talk about homogenization vs. diversity.

Factions should turn up unique and asymmetrical, yes? But you have to realize that some degree of mirroring is going to be present. Devastator, Havocs, Dark Reapers and Lootas are all going to fulfill virtually the same role on the battlefield.

What you wrote above makes it look like that means that Havocs are just going to be spiky Devastators, Reapers are just skinny Devastators and Lootas are just green, beefy Devastators. But does that really have to be the case? Can they fulfill the same roles and use virtually the same weapons and still be unique?

I'd say - maybe. But I don't know enough to comment on that.

I don't know how diverse the factions can be when 3 out of 4 confirmed classes are basically mirrored already. Any thoughts about that?

They may fullfill the same role on the Battelfield, but, its HOW they are doing it.
Havocs and Devastators will be similar, the reasons should be clear.
But Eldar an Orks have different weapons.

A SM Devastator with a Heavy Bolter, can shoot at a Singel Target with good accuracy, but a Ork Loota may be better against group of enemys.
Both are a Heavy Range Support, but they play differently.
Shooting =/= Shooting

See, that's pretty much how I was thinking some subtle differences could be worked out between classes and factions. In my opinion, it would be enough to create some needed diversity among factions, of course along with some less subtle differences like Autocannons vs. Plasma Cannons or Flying Hawks vs. Assault/Raptor/Stormboy.

I actually wrote Flying Hawks. -_-

The thing is that Commissars and officers are such a fundamental part of the IG that replacing Guardsmen with Stormtroopers just so we can strip those mechanics out would feel too much like just stretching a Guardsman skin over a Space Marine skeleton.

It'd be like saying "You know, markerlights and stuff seem really complicated. Why don't we drop Fire Warriors entirely and just give all the Tau Crisis Suits?"

Using the heavy weapon example, it'd be almost as if you decided to let Guardsmen tote their heavy weapons around like all the other factions, instead of sticking to their method of setting them up on tripods and offsetting their lower mobility with an advantage like a stable firing platform.

Yes it's more complicated, but it also adds more depth and immersion to the game.

Hey, for you maybe. Not for everyone though. I'd feel quite comfortable with being a Stormtrooper or a Enginseer, I suppose. I understand that this is how you feel, but you can't expect everyone to share your sentiment.

I don't feel like IG would suddenly turn into Space Marines if they have functioning classes that are not too much unlike the ones the other 4 factions would have. I think they'd be just fine. I think it's ok for you to disagree, but I feel a bit awkward by being confronted by your repetitive rhetoric.

You're basically fussing about one (albeit very important) aspect of the Imperial Guard. There are other aspects to the IG than massive infantry assaults lead by Sargeants and pushed Commissars. How about Catachan guerilla fighting? Elite Kasrkin troops? Mechanized assaults by superior Imperial armor? Why don't you consider those aspects and weight them with the massed infantry assaults.

And I'm not saying that I don't want the massed inf. assaults depicted in the game, I actually do. But differently, maybe not making it so all-defining. I don't want to carry a bunch of NPCs with me unless other factions get something similar too. But again, I wouldn't want to push for such an overhaul. Thus I don't want the mechanic at all.

I mean... just tell me why IG should have this mechanic and Orks shouldn't? Why can't both have free trial options to supply at least some sort of massive assaults? I wouldn't even care if there were less Orks, I'm actually not as thrilled with the prospect of F2Waaagh! as some people are.


Also, Sargeants are apparently going to be part of the "10 player squad, 100 player strike force" infrastructure.

And I'll give you one thing, I'd actually prefer if a player-controlled heavy weapons class would actually be two guardsmen running around with a heavy weapon. Obviously one of them would be more passive and practically just there to hold and help carry the weapon (possibly even in melee combat). It's what I'd like, but I don't feel all their classes really have to have multiple NPCs with them. Especially since it's quite a different thing when you have two guys glued to a heavy weapon (with one possibly shooting a pistol or waving a knife around if need be while the other keeps the weapon or w/e) and a bunch of guys running and shooting.

I'm not even arguing for NPCs though, I'm just pointing out that actual Guardsmen are close enough in power level already that if you give their Squad Leaders a way to give them a tactical boost (such as the Orders system from TT or the buff abilities in DoW) that they would be entirely competitive even with each player only controlling one.

It's 100% teamwork, no NPCs necessary. As was even mentioned earlier these could just be "powers" that come with the position of Squad Leader regardless of what their class happens to be, if people needing to pull a class specifically for leadership is seen as too restrictive.

Vehicles would still need to pull extra weight of course, one of their faction traits is supposed to be strong vehicles.

But we should be taking advantage of those differences, not trying to erase them. Just making everyone Stormtroopers because reminding your SL to push the "Moar Dakka" button now and then sounds too complicated is the lazy way out.

That's even worse.

Are you trying to say that Guardsmen Squad Leaders should have stronger buff options than the Squad Leaders of other factions? Just to make regular Guardsmen be on a similar level to Space Marines and Aspect Warriors? How does that make sense in the lore? SM Sargeants are far worse at motivating the super-soldiers than IG Sargeants are at motivating Guardsmen?

But ok, you could hand-wave that away almost just as easily the inherent difference in power between SMs and IG (to a degree), but what would you really accomplish? You'd get a faction that sucks at solo play to be simply on-par in group play... which seems unfair despite the fact that the game is a group-based game. Some people prefer to play solo most of the time, many people prefer to play solo at least part of the time.

It doesn't seem... well... not even interesting at all. To me at least.

Anyway, I'm not really a fan of having a faction with weaker classes who are off-set by group buffs to be able to compete. The fact that it's a group based game actually even makes the whole point of your suggestion kind of moot. See, having stronger tanks and somewhat weaker infantry seems perfectly fine. It's not even that complicated...

I also don't really understand why you're so against Stormtroopers. It's a bit like Dire Avengers and Guardians. Guardians quite a bit weaker than Tactical Marines, and the solution is to simply use Dire Avengers. They're there, they work, no problem. I only think Stormtroopers should be playable because regular Guardsmen are way below... even Guardians actually.

I think it has nothing to do with laziness.

It's not worse at all, because it's exactly how the IG operate in literally every single game they have been in. It works quite well for them. It's every bit as part of IG as WAAAGH! is part of the Orks and Markerlights are part of the Tau.

To be quite honest, in general I dislike how Space Marines are a black hole of OP that warps everything around them. If there's anyone who doesn't really fit in this game it's them.

And Guardsmen are not "way below Guardians". Conscripts are just barely under them, and only because Conscripts can't aim. Infantry squads are even counterparts to them, while Veterans are actually superior.

Sometimes it feels like I'm the only person who knows the difference between a Veteran and a Whiteshield. :/ Veterans will be plenty, Storm Troopers are better suited either for an elite class or CQB specialist (since hot-shot lasguns are powerful but short-ranged).

Pretty much every faction operates with squad leaders having an impact, I'm not trying to disagree that it's an IG thing but I'm trying to say that it's not just an IG thing. Maybe it has a more pronounced effect (i.e. weak units to not bad units) but I don't think, all in all, that it warrants making IG players that much worse in solo-play (as you seem to have suggested).

Also, I too dislike that SMs are sometimes boringly overpowered. But I don't actually saw them creating issues for other factions in the video games I've played so far. In DoW they were actually under-powered compared to how powerful they should be according to tt and books (this one more than anything). In the DoW2 singe player they were... actually even more overpowered?

The funny thing was that in SM, while Captain Titus did go on a rampage and killed thousands of enemies single-handed, the effects of his weapons and attacks were actually not as powerful as they should be. The Most Holy Bolter seemed more like a mere assault rifle than a very small rocket launcher. Traitor Guardsmen would survive a couple of hits, while they should actually die from just one round.

What I'm trying to point out is that SMs/CSMs were usually adjusted to work for game-play and that we might presume with relative safety that EC will not be much different. For example, while I would expect (and hope) acticals and Ork Boyz to work differently, I wouldn't expect the Tactical to kill the Boy with a couple of rounds while the boy would require to unload his whole mag into the Tactical's face to accomplish something. That's why I honestly don't think the power differences between Guardsmen (be they STs or not) and SM/CSMs have to be as profound as some people seem to think.

Also, I'm not sure about Guardians... they are superior to Guardsmen physiologically and technologically. Their only drawback seems to be their range. I can't speak for TT values though, so it would be helpful if you could draw me a diagram of their respective stats or something.