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Imperial Fists For 5th Sub Faction

Discussion in 'Space Marines' started by Crioxus, Apr 25, 2015.

  1. Dammit Loken, we have to get you away from ignoring lore after 30k because it doesn't fit your arguments. ;)

    My point is that if you're going to call Lorgar and Horus as being Mary Sues (which I don't personally agree with), then you need to extend that dubious honour to others, including Garviel Loken and Vulkan.

    And in Kor Phaeron's defence, he was using the same Anathame which a non-Astartes used to bring down Horus, so there was already a precedent. Those were unusually evil weapons! I entirely agree that Kharn had a stroke of luck in surviving the Land Raider encounter, but as he's famous for carving up his own side in blood rages, he's not exactly a typical Mary Sue in any other aspects that I'm aware of.

    Draigo came up because he's probably the single best example of a Mary Sue in the 40k universe. Yet another thing we have Matt Ward to thank for...
  2. And you have to stop bringing 40k lore into 30k arguments.

    Ignoring lore?

    Explain how Vulkan is marry sue? Have you read the novels? He was tortured by kurze then was bested by kurze 12 times! Then a normal human perpetual killed him!

    And I ready agreed about LOKEN, but that is your only valid point. Kor phaeron bested guilliman without the use of the anathema, so your point is moot.

    Older lore has the word bearers sending their entire legion to CALTH to fight the ultramarines, but now the only send a quarter of the legion to get the same effect!

    And as always this is the problem with people that lie chaos. Only loyalist can be marry sue, according to them. I have said multiple times that loyalists in 40k can be marry sue, but it is very clear that the traitors are the marry sue ones in 30k
  3. Okay, let's recap. Initially your point was that some of the traitors were "Mary Sue" because they had too many victories and didn't die much. If you were to draw a line stopping where the HH books are currently, this would be absolutely true. But if you cast your net out as far as the Battle for Terra and the Scouring, the Traitor Legions get an incredibly rough ride and lose the most pivotal conflict in WH40k. So I don't personally think this argument is going to stand on its own.

    You then expanded this to include traitor marines & traitor primarchs surviving things which should, by any normal expectation, have killed them. Makes sense to me. However, I was pointing out that the traitors don't have the monopoly on this that you seemed to be implying. Lorgar survives a Titan Cannon shot, Loken survives a bombardment cannon. Horus miraculously heals when the Chaos Gods get involved and later dies fighting the Emperor. Vulkan survives being killed 12 times and later dies (or perhaps doesn't) from being stabbed in the heart with fulgurite by a human perpetual after he's exhausted from fighting Kurze. You're welcome to explain why the loyalists surviving in unreasonable situations isn't Mary Sue, but when traitors survive similarly unexpected events it is, but right now I'm not seeing it.

    On the Kor Phaeron point, apologies; I confused the battle with the one with Fulgrim where the anathame was used. Yes, Kor Phaeron does beat Guilliman - but he is one of the foremost sorcerors of the Chaos forces, and uses sorcery to do it. It's not as if it was random marine #426. ;)

    Similarly, Alexis Pollux outsmarts and out fights Perturabo and, much much later, Kaldor Draigo will utterly humiliate Mortarion and Abaddon will defeat a Horus clone before he gains the gifts of the chaos gods.

    In any case, I am in no way saying that only loyalists contain Mary Sues. What I am saying is that by the measures you've proposed, both loyalists and traitors have Mary Sues amongst them. I entirely agree with you that the balance of which tends to have more powerful and successful characters and forces favours Chaos in 30k and the loyalists in 40k. But "more powerful" is not on its own the same as an idealised Mary Sue character. And the chaos side tends to be struck by much deeper character flaws (as a general rule) than the loyalists.

    If you dropped the term "Mary Sue" and instead referred to chaos as being OP in 30k, I'd agree with you entirely.
  4. Now we are in agreement. The only reason i dropped marry sue was because of everyone calling the loyalists marry sue in 40k cannon.

    Thank you for wrapping it up in a good post
  5. GameBoss Whisper33 Well-Known Member

    Congratulations imperial fists. May you bring death to the enemies of man!
  6. So, now that the second Imperial civil war has quietened down, and once again the Fists have emerged victorious from the smoking ruins of grand dreams of space marine unity, it's time to ask the most important question of all before the loyalists turf us back into the Eye of Terror.

    What's the difference between an Imperial Fist and a Raven Guard?

    An Imperial Fist wins without cheating.
    A Raven Guard cheats without wi-


    No...stop. Just ten more seconds. Can't you see I'm trying to re-ignite the war?!
  7. Predo Predo Subordinate

    One Crimson Fists is ready to join the VII Legion :cool: ...

    quick question :) can someone direct me to Crimzon Fists therad :cool: if it exists?!o_O

    [​IMG]
  8. na nasisimo Subordinate

    THERE IS ONLY THE EMPEROR
  9. Sigvald Darthy Curator

    *Checks into the thread*

    Someone is actually saying that Horus is a Mary Sue?

    Horus fails harder then any Primarch, hands down. He's a dupe for the Chaos Gods, a blunt hammer they swing violently around. In the end he regrets every single choice he makes 1001% and is obliterated from the face of creation, and is remembered for eternity as a joke between the nine Chaos Legions in the Eye of Terror. EVEN WHEN he comes back, for five seconds, he's murdered instantly and by a Space Marine no less.

    He fails on every possible level he can fail, no other Primarch loyalist or traitor can say that

    Edit: Derp, this is for an argument that apparently ended days ago.
  10. Valrak Valrak Arch Cardinal Superior

    Indeed...

    [​IMG]

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