Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ChaplainRU55IO, Oct 20, 2013.
"If Necrons Are Included, How Would They Work?"
Why on duracel batteries of course
Though wasn't in the first few Codex's that they were in the same universe just that the world that fantasy took place on was surrounded by warp storms? I thought this was a thing then it just died out over the course of the next Codex's.
It'd be cool if that was true, but it looks like they'd rather the similarities be considered bad writing instead of just tying it all together
Just an FYI, I was trying to basically say in the title if they were to be put in (as a playable race), how would they make the gameplay balanced because I initially thought of how their Gauss weapons are effective against armor and flesh. My best idea would be to do something like the first DoW did and have a weapon be better against infantry (Gauss Flayer) and one against vehicles (Gauss Blaster).
I think Dark Crusade did it right, if they stuck to that in EC it would have fewer problems
Are you being serious?
Just asserting that the old necrons were not based on horror doesn't make it so, though I can see how it would be convenient for your argument to ignore this glaringly obvious fact.
If you want to do more than simply invite a bland "Yes it is" "No it isn't" argument you should really make some effort to explain why you feel that is the case - Look I'll show you how it is done!
The old Necrons absolutely were rooted in Horror, both in terms of the cultural resonances that their imagery draws from, but mainly in the way this ties in with and is reinforced by their thematic underpinning.
It's undeniable that there are many aspects of 40k as a game that owe as much to the Horror genre as the science fiction or military genres, but let's gloss over the other similarities for now and instead let's narrow our attention to the Necrons and how they have changed thematically using cinema as a reference, stripping away the sci-fi gloss to look at the underlying themes.
Ok guess what I'm referring to here:
"Creatures rise up from the dead in a half life, seemingly intent on eradicating the living. They are implacable and unrelenting, driven to destroy without compunction and without hope of mercy or quarter.. The best that can be done is to drive them away..."
Yes that's right - it's pretty much the thematic underpinning of every zombie movie ever made... in-fact if you change the first sentence for your monster of choice you have summarised 90% of all horror movies.
Horror of this kind relies on the atavistic dread of being hunted by something that simply wants to devour or destroy you, either body or soul, something that cannot be reasoned with, placated or appeased.
Necrons self evidently were based on Horror.
The NewCrons on the other hand, well let's see...
They simply follow orders. They show honor in rare occasions to worthy foes. They fight because they have to, not because they want to. They can be reasoned with, even going so far as to draw up temporary cease fires.
Put simply they are thematically based in the military genre, reducing the whole 'space undead' imagery to merely window dressing rather than an important and integral aspect of their overall theme. It is for this reason that some people liken Zandrek to a British officer of the "Wot ho, must treat prisoners of war like a proper gentlemen... anything else just isn't cricket dont'cha know!" brand. A stereotype that is entirely fitting in a military genre, but absolutely antithetical to the horror genre.
The closest thematic match with the Newcrons in modern cinema would be a cross between, on the one hand, films like the Pirates of the Caribbean or The Mummy with their use of the iconic imagery of the undead, shorn of all the horror elements, designed to titillate children without overly frightening them - with a World War 2 film!
Let me cut you off there before you ignore the massive thematic shift the Necrons underwent from a menacing horror themed army that called on a wide array of tropes from the "Sleeping evil awakened" which can be found employed to great effect in Lovecraft's works, the movie 'Alien' and the early 'Mummy's curse' type films that the Egyptian themes pay homage to, to the "Evil demonic power calling the dead to rise" used in the film 'Evil Dead'... to a kids themepark wacky 'soldiers dressed as zombies' mess.
Also I very much think that the old codex had many problems, but - as I stated before - all of these could have been remedied without completely abandoning the thematic core of what made the old Necrons what they were!
Squats were retconned due to not fitting with the overall theme of the game, they were essentially too much a comedy relief army for the many bikers who read White Dwarf.
This change was to benefit a thematic direction, rather than to unnecessarily change a thematic direction that absolutely was in keeping with the overall 'Grimdark' atmosphere of WH40k.
I entirely agree, and conversely just because you like something doesn't make it good. However my problems with the NewCrons lore, the quality of the writing, it's stylistic incoherence, it's mangling of themes, the kiddification of it's horror elements, not to mention the contempt and disregard for the existing players and lore that such a change represents, are far more considered and reasoned than simply disliking it for no good reason.
It is because these criticisms can be held up to objective scrutiny and have merits in their own right that they can be held up as reasons for why the NewCrons are a retrograde step.
In other words I am doing a lot more when I call the NewCrons a mess than just voicing a bland opinion backed by nothing more than empty rhetoric and assertions!
Ok then fella, why don't you do more than just fling assertions and actually try to do more than just go "Well I like it neener neener... and my opinion is a good as anyone elses so there!" and actually examine more than just the surface gloss of the issue!
that took awhile; didnt it?
lol a quality rant takes time
So, your argument is that anything that can come back after being killed is an attempt at horror, so making them not be mindless killing machines is a failure at keeping them in the horror genre. So, let's just ignore the fact that Necrons aren't the only ones who can effectively respawn, and focus on their inclusion in the horror genre.
They were able to get back up after being destroyed (sometimes). Sure, in the right setting, that is a good set up for a horror movie.
They were mindless.
They were controlled by (also effectively unkillable) creatures that wanted to devour the souls of the universe.
You're right, that could be menacing, if expanded upon correctly. Thing is, it wasn't. In those three lines, I summed up the backstory of the old codex. There was no substance, and without substance, how can you be scared of them? You may mention plenty of other stories and writers who successfully used the rising dead trope, but I'd imagine all of those had more to them than "Dead things stand up and kill things". And that is what the old codex was.
As for your "kiddification" argument, giving something a mind =/= making it kid-friendly. Sure, they got rid of some of the potential for horror, but that's all it was. Potential, that they never reached. But you can't say it was simply pandering to children, it was simply a shift towards a more interesting direction. Yes, more interesting. The current version allows for variation. You can have an entire empire filled with old version Necrons, because the Overlord took absolute controll over them, and thinks like a destroyer. They still have potential for that mindless horror you seem to crave, while allowing for a simple empire of robots who want their "humanity" back, and tomb worlds where the world's AI system has completely taken over, and is conquering both Necron Tomb Worlds, and wiping their memory to assert direct control, and using mindshackle scarabs to enslave planets fill of living beings. You can have the horror you want, while allowing for variety.
Now to adress your final two points:
First off, thanks for actually coming up with a coherent argument, and explaining your dislike.
Second, your initial argument was just as empty as you claim mine was. You came off as a pretentious prick, who thought that everyone who didn't join him in mindless hatred of something was stupid. So, I responded accordingly. My final point was less "Neener Neener, I have an opinion", it was more "if you're going to make a point, try to say it without making people want to punch you in the face, and while you're at it, try to back up what you're saying." Now, your second post improved greatly upon that second problem, however it still had the first.
Woooow heated discussions going on here. *Backs away before silently closing the door and walking away.*
But before i go, here are my 2 cents;
I personally think they could go both ways with the crons. An AI controlled implacable foe can be scary. But in my personal experience, facing humans adds a more tense feeling to combat. Knowing a sentient being is watching you in combat, waiting for that one moment where you slip up so it can deliver the killing blow... Ahhh it is what gaming is about for me.