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Howling Banshee 2: The Solution

Discussion in 'Eldar' started by Rheeva, Jan 29, 2018.

  1. Belphegor LordSloth Preacher

    Let me stop you right there and tell you flat out that you should never present your personal opinion as anything other than the minority viewpoint it is. A good balance system even (in the pvp parts of the) game can (and the success of said games proves that) very well use and utilize invulnerabilities. If you want to disregard that i would suggest taking a very close look at highly successfull and longtime games like wow or dota2 or League of Legends or Destiny 1/2 or Overwatch (all games played by millions) which manage that functionality quiet well and balanced. Or i could name some pve focussed games like warframe or even upcoming PVP games like crowfall which find exactly the right finetuning for it. So please either play better games or tune down your wide generalisations and strong personal opinions to the reality.
    Having said that pretending this would be unrealistic in 40k (rosarii and forcefields anyone?), overpowered (like psykers?), frustrating (like JPAs?) or anymore gamebreaking (like bolter apothecaries with zombiegrenades?) is just funny. Every other accessment you make is probably your own opinion as polarized as it may be. Allthough you do realise that invulnerability does not have to always come in the form of damage absorbtion? Considering we have already 2 different forms of invulnerabilities you probably overlooked. Jumppack and Cloak. You can't shoot what you can't see or quickly track. It is all a matter of finetuning it, which i suggested by long cooldowns or tweaking it's active time window.

    The core fact remains unless you change something and give the banshee a niche it will never leave the scorpions shadow and i personally havent heared of banshees with shields.

    Not to mention that playing around with the banshee base LP will probably never happen. This sets base classes apart from the Veterans / Elites and unless you start to rework all LP costs over all factions i don't see the banshee getting a new 1000 armor trinket for 10 LP.
    This leaves only 2 possible avenues open. Readjusting what we have, squeezing 20-50 LP out of the screammask? Or option 2 reinvent the special perk for a new role while keeping the rest intact. And option 1 in my opinion is not worth the time or breath cause it will literally change nothing.
    Vaanes likes this.
  2. Demetri Dominov Demetri_Dominov Arkhona Vanguard

    I've generally considered Baneshee's closer to Calvary than to Assault Troops. Not that I disagree with any of your suggestions or recommendations, but I think the devs at one point considered this route and I'm curious to know why they switched it - I think it was a poor choice to move away from because they no longer really serve a role.

    For example both the leap and their run speed used to be faster/farther than it is now.

    Problem was, and still is, that pretty much no matter what the Baneshee's have ever been capable of, they are pretty much outclassed by other options in the Eldar arsenal. The Hawk is far better at flanking. Scorpions generally are better at disruption and survivability. Everyone is better at a direct assault - and other than the rare audacious charge, Calvary are not necessarily meant to be your vanguard unless they're heavy Calvary. What's more is that the Baneshee's are very susceptible at getting killed by friendly fire, and the Eldar in general are notoriously bad at holding any ground long enough to provide good cover for Banshee's to flank in the first place, which again is partly why Hawks are so much more dominate at that role - they have speed and range, meaning they can react and be part of that speed factor since a DA or Reaper ranged squad is going to generally have trouble against an equal Tactical or Devestator squad - so they have to be even more independent than JPA's without the ability to get away from a fight.

    So I have to address @LordSloth because it ties into what I have to offer; League in particular is renown for how unbalanced it is - that's the entire point of "A Meta" that people run, which is further exemplified by a 10 strong ban list - and how out of whack their other game modes can become - 4/5's support team, 3/5's tank or ADC team on ARAM. The card game Magic the Gathering is legendary for their ban lists throughout multiple game modes of a game that's spanned over 30 years and is considered "balanced" due to regulating formats and even the price of cards. There's a series on how "Unbalance" makes games seem balanced because you don't balance in a traditional sense of team X's gun is balanced to team Y's gun because everyone has the same guns. When there's as many guns as the alphabet, or more, you start to run into how you're comparing apples to oranges. In both this game and League balance almost doesn't even become asymmetrical anymore. League has the benefit of banning certain characters prior to the match, in MTG the MATCH determines what you can bring, and honestly people probably would want that even here: I.E Eldar ban Bolters, LSM ban Hawks. I honestly feel like that's a more productive way of balancing this game at this point than trying to overhaul big portions of it:

    Each side should get 3 options to ban during the set up phase of the game:

    A. A single Class so long as the team can still win the match. (Tacticals/DAs would never be able to banned on attacking)
    B. Equipment and a Gun.
    C. A Vehicle.

    That would lead to some really interesting matchups. I feel like that's a Warlord power in itself right there. Attacking Fortress map without a Vindicator? Can you imagine defending it without Devestators? Defenders on a take and hold match don't get Tacticals or DA's making them super vulnerable to losing points? That's a new buttclentching game-mode right there.

    But let's say the match will never determine the bans - since, let's be realistic, the devs are pretty paralyzed atm, they'd be lucky to even implement small changes to the Banshee. Which means:

    Put them back as a Calvary Role with a few item changes to make them into different roles:

    The scream is really way too offensively focused. It doesn't do it's job of limiting the fire coming back at it very well and allows you to one hit someone.. which is pretty bogus for everyone tbh. You can tell it wasn't really thought out since Jinx literally does what the scream does already only without marginal suppression. So the scream in particular is probably the crux of how the Baneshee could be balanced. I personally think that it should just shut down a target's ability to shoot their weapon. Period. No suppression. No buff to damage. Just raise your fists and get to fighting. This honestly needs to happen more often anyway but that's a different topic.

    As a base Baneshee's should have an Acceleration factor, meaning that the farther they run without pause, the faster they go. This is a simple buildup velocity function, very easy to implement, and it exists inside a clamp meaning not only will it be capped at a certain level, it wouldn't activate until you reached a threshold either. So I think that the Eldar runspeed is currently 15% faster, the Baneshee, after and over a period of time could push that.

    Light Cavalry: SPEED: Give items to increase Leap Distance, Stamina and Stamina Regen, and an INSTANT runspeed boost DODGING near an Enemy, (much the same as Yasou or Singed), meaning if you dodge away from an enemy, you'll already be booking it away, a lot like a JPA''s boost. If you hang around or try to engage you waste that chance -you either take it then or forfeit it. Ideally, this should encourage Baneshee's to charge into the enemy and right out the other side, maybe downing one or two people as they go.


    Heavy Cavalry: SUSTAINABILITY: Same speed as normal Eldar. Same Leap Distance as currently. No movespeed Boost on dodge. Scream can either increase the T value of their sword to T3, or decrease all weapons they affect by a single T and in either case grant Lifesteal on affected targets (think how scary maneater in sword form sounds), these Baneshee's will shatter <=T2 weapons like crazy and even put T3 on edge. Give them more hp instead of armor or stamina.
    Vaanes and LordSloth like this.
  3. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    I don't know LoL well enough, only that its an entirely different genre. I do know, however, that Destiny 2 and Overwatch go with minimal Iframes for the exact same reason as Ive stated and that they are a major problem in Warframe, a game I have loved for 5 years but that is also known for its immense powercreep.

    Also yes, Iframes are, indeed, defined by being actual invulnerability-frames. It is a state in which you take no damage, nor are suspectible to any kind of crowd-control, nor other, negative effects.
    Stealth is something different, evasion is something different, shield-effects are something different.
    There are two kinds of Iframes that are generally tolerable in an action-based game:
    -Very short ones you can use timed to specifically deny attacks
    -Those that stop you from doing anything else but evading
    Our, current dodges meet both criteria, yet they are borderline broken. The second is the reason why rollex is so bad.
    In other genres or even games, Iframes are more acceptable mostly of the way combat is designed. If your average TTK lies around a minute, having 4-seconds of protection isn't so bad.
    Our TTK is fairly high for a shooter, but please let me remind you that your suggestion includes iframes for 'a few seconds', which is literally multiple times as long as it would take to kill us normally.
    Get the difference? 5% of the general TTK? Fine. 500% of the general TTK? Bad.

    FYI: Tracking a Jump-Assault is not very hard, if it weren't for latency and the only of your points that makes sense is JPA's being annoying.

    Regardless of whether or not an extended invulnerability is 'balanced', this problem should be addressed not just by buffing the scream until its fine. I guess you can call that a 'niche' but the usual term would be 'One-Trick-Pony'. I mean, no offense but you are literally describing the very worst kind of balance there is:
    "I have a win-button that makes me completely untouchable for several seconds but as soon as it runs out, its on a long cooldown and the rest of the class is underpowered and unplayable"
    This is not a matter of 'personal opinion' or 'minority opinion' either. This is just broken in every, conceivable way and I am sorry if you can't see that.

    By 'cavalry' I suppose you mean a speed-based, hit-and-run troop-type?
    It sounds good but I am not convinced this is actually possible in the current melee-system. Even in the best case scenario, an enemy will always be able to stall us for three clangs and two dodges(+ the time it actually takes to kill them), which is plenty of time for their friends to react.
    This isn't something we will have great success changing, not without overwriting the rules of melee or taking away means of defense (Like Ash's concept of the scream stripping stamina)

    I've never liked banning items. If a tournament or a league does it in their internal ruling, thats their deal. But if game-developers do it by default, they aren't doing their jobs right.
    Also, in my experience, it gets out of hand quick. There is always a reason to be found to disallow X.
    This is a personal opinion of course.
    Also, EC is generally very well balanced. Its actually amazing for a four-faction, asymmetrical game.

    As for acceleration, thats out-of-combat speed again. If anything, I would like the contrary: Very fast movement over a short duration and normal movement on extended distances. Your later suggestion: "Speed-boost from dodging" is more like it. Just not sure if too much coding.

    On a side note: I don't see much use in more stamina. I stopped running the Rejuvenating Emblem because I figured out 2 base stamina +40% regeneration are enough to never run out of dodges when I need them.
    The third bar of Stamina isn't something you ever need tactically, its something that allows you to spam Iframes, which can be effective but is not very elegant.
  4. Vaanes likes this.
  5. Belphegor LordSloth Preacher

    Well apparently you conceive games differently and form your opinion in rather drastic measures on everything, which makes argueing with you pretty pointless and tedious in the first place.

    Just to prove your statement wrong: 8 out of 22 Overwatch heroes have pure iframes baked into their abilities and some additional ones have semi-iframes where they are immune from a certain side or can block all incoming damage with a shield for a few seconds. Even if you are not invulnerable but put up a shield of 20k hp and the enemy has no way of destroying it in below 2-3 seconds thats damage invulnerability.

    So i will only take out what you bolded because that in itself is already a missrepresentation of what i tried to say.
    I never said the banshee needs an i-win button, i never gave a definate or final "version" of the breacher invulnerability concept and just offered possible options to tune it. Neither did i imply that the class outside of it's special perk should be utterly useless or broken or underpowered. So wherever you are getting that from please stop. Myself and Demetri both said that the Banshee needs a special role to give it a niche and to differenciate it from the scorpion. The answer should not be "can do 10 dps more or has additional 10 health) but rather a unique playstyle like a JPA differes from a GA.
    Would a 3-5(or maybe even 7 while we throw random numbers around) second invulnerability vs ranged fire or a steep 90-95% damage reduction vs ranged fire on a 30-60 second cooldown be completely broken in every conceivable way? I doubt that. Afterall you can achieve the very same with a 3-4 stamina build already. But in my opinion it would allow you to disengage and engage freely while actually saving stamina for melee combat. Like i said above many many games not just the few prominent ones up there successfully use the concept without beeing broken.
    Having said that, the thoughtprocess behind my idea was to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. A) Define the Banshee as a sturdy bruiser who can take some fire without messing up it's melee prowess (something you would do if you would just add 300 health instead of invulnerability or dmg reduction or shield or whatever triggered abilitiy) and B) give the warhost another unique class filling a role which might be handy and is not covered or overcovered by other classes. You could even go and give the Banshee a 20 meter charge or teleport ability like in DoW3 so disruption stems from the fact that they are right in the mix but knowing the maps with their little invisible stones something like this would never work properly.
  6. Mr.White G0dlyN00b New Member

    Change the wail to a constant aura that builds up over time shaking the affected player's screens, giving a suppression effect.
    Make it so they don't lose any momentum when dodging or leaping over obstacles. Howling Banshees are defined as graceful acrobats that leap across the battlefield, but at current state they are almost as clunky as a space marine.
  7. Drakkoth Krypto Arkhona Vanguard

    Love that people are talking about making the banshe have a place in EC (it was the class i most wanted to play when i started playing space elves besides playing a farseer). So I'm going to chime in here and say 2 things.

    First, there is no reason to start a brainstorming session (where literally every idea should be heard) and then simply discount an idea because "reasons". That defeats the whole point of a brainstorming session.

    Secondly, we are in dire need of a class that can breach a fortified position. And while i would love for the banshe to fill that role i would also like for i-frames to go the way of the dodo bird in general.

    All that being said i'm liking the suggestion of making the scream disable the primary weapon's firing mode.
  8. nikel nikel Arkhona Vanguard

    Why not just stagger, like lash of slaanesh, only one but for all affected in a cone?
  9. Dorfus Dorfus Steam Early Access

    what I would do to the banshee:

    1. fix the way melee attacks connect. I'm so tired of my charged attacks going towards a marine who just goes "lol no" and slips through my attack if I don't use autoaim (lock-on). that's just a big flaw and it severely reduces the ability of the banshee to do quick 1vx's, which just leaves us with the option of booking it if there ever is more than one enemy going towards you.

    2. increase survability. banshees don't have stealth, they are supposed to be more direct than scorpions, so could you explain to me, why does a striking scorpion have more armor when it's not even supposed to charge into the fray? now, I know banshees aren't supposed to charge from the front towards the enemy either, but you get what I'm saying. banshees can't just pop out of nowhere and poof away and hide in a corner or whatever, and the fact that their survability is piss poor makes it even worse.

    3. make it so that the scream staggers your enemy even if just slight bit, so that it has something to escape from a horde of marines/orks like the scorpion and his stealth.

    4. either reduce marine iframes or increase banshee iframes, or just remove them completely. I know this is a touchy subject but like, fuck, why am I unable of dodging a fast attack if I roll back but a marine can just roll back and slip away from my attack? makes no sense. basically if I don't do a charged attack (and even that doesn't work sometimes), the guy just gets to evade one of my attacks for free.

    5. add more cosmetics, ffs. also fix the problem with the banshee vets' soulstones not glowigg if I use a shrine that isn't the default one. this is a really severe issue for me.
  10. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    anything i-frame related is impossible to fix btw because the devs can't or won't put in the man hours needed to remove them from every animation

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