Can we make a constructive list of positive changes, which could improve and balance ranged weapons that are considered under-performing right now? People are free to agree or disagree. Agreed upon points I will add to the OP. To start with the most important, my main suggestions are: - Make the suppression effect work consistently (a bug fix, I know). - Make Heavy Bolter weapons (and the equivalent weapons for Ork Deffguns, Eldar Shuriken Cannons) have a debuff to movement speed added to their suppression effect. This would make them function similarly to how Heavy Weapon teams function in the Dawn of War II game, and assault jump squads, or temporary suppression immune abilities, were needed to counter them. With teamwork backing them up, this could really make heavy weapon teams essential to countering melee spam, and help bolter/shoota weapons working together with the heavy weapons. - Add the same effect to vehicle heavy bolter/big shoota/shuriken weapons - Decrease recoil slightly for Marine Bolters, making Tactical Marines have more control and strength over their weapon. As for Plasma Cannons, I have thought about it, and I think making them not have 1 hit kill potential could make them somewhat useless. Alternatively, I have some other changes that could work: - Slow down the speed of Plasma projectiles slightly, and make them consistently display (another bug), so they can be seen and dodged better from medium to long ranges. Decrease the time they have to get the shot off before the weapon disables and overheats. - Make Plasma Cannons have higher heat generation, so they cannot be fired so rapidly. For Orks specifically: Right now the ZAAAP! Kannon is really a cheesy, one-dimensional, unfun weapon to use. - Remove Orc Zaaap Cannon lock-on to fire feature, and allow them to fire at will, but have the same charge up speed, as if it were locked on the entire time. Reduce it's damage against vehicles and buildings (maybe 25%), and lower their damage against infantry so they cannot 1 shot kill anymore. - Give Ork Zaaap Cannons an alternative fire mode to fire without scope, that can shoot much more frequently (similar to an auto cannon, but slower), increases it's recoil (making it bad for long range shooting), and lowers it's damage. This way it can have an alternative use at close to medium ranges by right click shooting. - Fix Ork Kannons so they do what they are described for, removing enemies from cover. Right now, you can shoot the front of the cover (wall, rock etc), and the enemy behind cover can remain untouched. Instead of 1 shotting enemies behind cover, add a concussion effect to Kannon explosion (like the reworked suppression effect), and lower the damage of the charged shot. - Add a weaker concussion (suppression) effect to the right-click fire mode shot for the Kannon. Added: - Improve Camera for ranged weapons - especially heavy weapons. - Remove fire delay for most ranged weapons. - Fix hit detection on Heavy Bolters, or confirm that it's working as intended. (Same goes for anything that has hit detection issues) Decrease Heavy Bolter spread when unbraced, or add more useful brace points. Redesign maps so that there are more approaches that can be covered by ranged attackers and defenders, at ranges where those weapons are supposed to excel. If ranged combat is supposed to be effective at 30-100m, then so many place where LOS is blocked past 30m isn't going to help. More of the ranged defensive positions are in range of the bonus/capture XP Redesign maps so that less defensive positions put their back to other entrances into a Capture Point. Extend the Capture Bonus area so that those who are supporting an assault by shooting the enemies trying to get inside get some credit - perhaps a lesser amount, but the rewards at the moment are all driven around being directly on the point, in CQB - exactly where most ranged are the weakest. Slightly reduce the tracking speed reduction in ADS - make it easier to track moving targets. There's more I could add, but I'll hold off for now. I will not comment on Eldar changes because I do not play against them very often as an Ork.
One change, DRASTICALLY CHANGE HEAD SHOT DAMAGE BONUS. From the current 25% to 100%. Not even terminator's helmet is immune to a direct bolter hit, let alone a simple marine's helmet or eldar, and not to mentio no helmet on orks.
Yea, I agree with that. Even if the head-shot bonus was increased to 50-60%. I edited the part about ZAAAP! Kannons: - Give Ork Zaaap Cannons an alternative fire mode to fire without scope, and can shoot much more frequently (similar to an auto cannon, but slower), increases it's recoil (making it bad for long range shooting), and lowers it's damage. This way it can have an alternative use at close to medium ranges by right click shooting.
Revert the changes to Ranged Melee (sounds stupid, but hear me out) D-Bash stun, make it like it was again. Right now, once you get stunned by a ranged character, just continue smashing that RMB button. You attack as fast as your opponent. And if he runs away, you still catch him with that travel-distance (save for fists and claws of course) Increase Knive durability again. If knives behave like this against powerfists it's ok as they swing really slow. But everything else...
Remove the input or animation delay between pressing and holding LMB and when your weapon starts to fire. I know I can't speak for anyone else, but psychologically, that very brief and minor delay throws off my ability to aim and shoot effectively. All other shooter games have trained me over the past decade and a half that my weapon should instantly fire when I start to hold the fire button, and the fact that in EC there's a delay messes with my brain enough that I can't shoot properly. I can do shooting combat just fine in other games, it's really only EC where I have this problem.
Agreed. Last time this was discussed, the consensus was that it would be too hard to balance without making life way too hard for melee. I was initially on the side that suggested it, but now I think that if there is to be a movement debuff on suppression, it should be a short stumble at worst - something that takes you out of a sprint, but can be rolled out of, or start sprinting again. Agreed that Bolters could do with a boost and accuracy/recoil seems a good variable, but the design intent is for marines to stop moving and use ADS for accurate fire. I don't play Bolter Tactical, so I can't speak for whether actually this controls recoil enough. Agreed, but the heat generation already only allows a rapid succession of shots for so long - 3 or 4 I think? I apologise for the negativity, but I wanted to get my responses down first. Positive changes: Fix hit detection on Heavy Bolters, or confirm that it's working as intended. (Same goes for anything that has hit detection issues) Decrease Heavy Bolter spread when unbraced, or add more useful brace points. Redesign maps so that there are more approaches that can be covered by ranged attackers and defenders, at ranges where those weapons are supposed to excel. If ranged combat is supposed to be effective at 30-100m, then so many place where LOS is blocked past 30m isn't going to help. More of the ranged defensive positions are in range of the bonus/capture XP Redesign maps so that less defensive positions put their back to other entrances into a Capture Point. Extend the Capture Bonus area so that those who are supporting an assault by shooting the enemies trying to get inside get some credit - perhaps a lesser amount, but the rewards at the moment are all driven around being directly on the point, in CQB - exactly where most ranged are the weakest. Slightly reduce the tracking speed reduction in ADS - make it easier to track moving targets. Reduce sprinting speed a little (This may not be needed in conjunction with a stumble effect)
@Pouncey Is that the case for all ranged weapons? I thought it was only for certain ones? @Brother-Toaster I didn't experience how it was before the changes. @Forgrim No worries, some of the ideas I suggested are rough and need the details and specifics anyhow. As for Suppression gaining a slow effect, that effect can be many different variables. I wasn't suggesting a heavy slow effect, just enough where an enemy caught at ranged in the suppression, would be slowed down slightly to give ranged a bit more time to fire at them. The effect doesn't need to be very heavy (like how it was in DoW II, or CoH where units were forced to stopped to a crawling pace). In turn, this can also be countered with friendly heavy weapons and artillery fire. If you're melee, and you know or see that there's heavy weapons that will suppress you, friendly heavy weapons can provide covering fire to add their own suppression effect to the enemy's ranged weapons. Also, this would encourage melee to work together with ranged friendlies more, and make them have to play smarter with flanking and moving indirectly to flank the enemy position. In my opinion, that's exactly how warfare works in Warhammer 40k much of the time.
Then the speed at which players die gets even faster. Which seems like the majority of players and reviewers who I have heard speak about the game, are already critical about, and do not like how fast you die, leaving you little time to react. In my opinion, a straight up increase to all ranged weapon damage may not be a good way to go about fixing this problem. Yes, it's very simple and straightforward (which I typically like), but it would probably just make the gameplay worse.
