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How precisely are Eldar 'OP'?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Don_Silvarro, Feb 17, 2017.

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  1. NurgleBurger NurgleBurger Steam Early Access

    Lawn mower tanks of death, 2 classes that can absolutely decimate vehicles in seconds, warlocks being ballerinas of death and nurse joys at the same time. Blinding fucking mozzies.

    Does that make them OP? I used to think so but experience has proved otherwise over the many months. I see them more of a challenge now (which is a good thing), but certainly not unbeatable. All the above can be countered.

    All factions have their strengths that when used correctly in a team can be extremely challenging to play against... even LSM.
    Recoil, Whitefox550, Cegorach and 3 others like this.
  2. Don_Silvarro Recruit

    I am genuinely curious if this sounded clever in your head.
    Brujah likes this.
  3. BaronXIII Arkhona Vanguard

    Eldar aren't OP, but they aren't nearly as weak as they all claim either.

    They DO fuck with the game performance though like FPS dropping lag wizards, but that is a technical issue not a balance issue.
    Recoil, Faeruin and ranel003 like this.
  4. As far as I remember, Eldar are the only faction that has 2 "critical points" on their vehicles, being the rear armor and the cockpit.

    Also from experience, if 8 CSMs(mostly GAs and Sorcerers) had a lot of trouble killing a single banshee in a room, then its clearly an issue with players. I can clearly remember that they constantly tried to Melee through their down'd teammate while I danced around Downing other people.
  5. They're not OP but can seem OP because the game can't keep up with their speed meaning they often break RPS rules. They benefit most from the lag in the game which is terrible meaning they can appear OP but if you play them with no lag and the game can keep up they're fine.

    The only real issue I have has been mentioned, I believe they need a slight cooldown on the second melta bomb to give people defending vehicles a chance because that double melta combo is a very powerful tool.
  6. Nic NicholaiPestot Well-Known Member

    tldr version: The elder skill-ceiling is higher.

    Full version:

    In the hands of PUGs, Eldar are not noticeably different to the other factions.

    What the Eldar have are better tools for guilds. Coordinated transport destruction and coordinated healing are two of the four primary factors that differentiate guilds from pugs (the others being objective focus and voice comms).

    When we roll with our Eldar characters, our ability to impact the battle with organised tactics is far greater than on the other three factions.

    • 3 Fire Dragons in a Waveserpent operate with around 200% efficiency compared to their equivalents on other factions, where a guild needs to dedicate 6 people-in-a-transport to reach equivalent capabilities. The double-bomb on each fire dragon combined with the unparalleled infantry-mowing/transport-blocking capabilities of the waveserpent allow Eldar guilds to field hyper-efficent transport-hunting squads without compromising objective defence.

    • Eldar Warlocks are combat monsters, so Eldar guilds can run capture/defence squads with overwhelming healing superiority. By comparison the Guilds of the other three factions have to make hard choices about how many healers they bring, because each healer in a squad will degrade its damage capabilities. This results in Eldar guild squads that are far more resiliant than the guild squads of other factions. With multiple redundant healers/melee monsters and an undead army of aspect warriors that just keep coming back from the dead, eternal crusade Guild Warlocks are literally warhammer fantasy vampires ^.^.

    The advantages of the other factions are not quite as useful for guilds, but are easier for pugs to use.
    Recoil and Ardean like this.
  7. Arnedor Ardean Steam Early Access

    Yup. It's hard to play Eldar good, but when a team of them do, it's very hard to overcome. On a tactical commander level, we get access to the best scout in the game (hawk), the best AV against parked transports (and a hawk can park transports when we need them to stop moving), and a baseline mobility that allows us to quickly respond to threats without always having to redeploy and risk the high countdown or losing Elites to get to where we need to be in order to win.

    Side note: when it comes to AV we usually run 3-4 man dedicated teams. One dedicated driver, two fire dragons, and one hawk (when necessary). When opponents do roughly the same, our "best" AV becomes pretty much comparable AV. Two metlas or four kraks will kill any parked vehicle whether that comes from 1 FD, 2 FD or 2 Tacs with melta/krak bundles. When you start considering power fists, reaper launchers, lascannons, grav-gun snare, keeping a transport mobile and defended or other counter AV tactics, using dedicated AV squad transports to resupply your bombs/kraks, and Serpents having 30% less HP and being vulnerable on both the front cockpit, then things start getting fairly even across a wider variety of situations. One FD *can* kill vehicles easy, but if you really need the job to be done, sending 1 man is just too risky, time consuming, and could easily lose you the match due to failing to block enemy reinforcements on critical point caps. Yet as soon as you add one more man to the mix, then the FD double bundle advantage becomes a null point.

    That said, each faction can field some terrifying teams when their tools are not under-utilized. END and LREV has humbled us in serious matches on CSM and Chaos side, and the top WBZ teams can thrash the top WP teams despite sharing many of the same members. But when it comes to playing Eldar good against a sea of PuGs... it's not even a borderline contest unless we are just horsing around and BSing in comms versus enforcing strict tactical comm discipline with separate command and squad channels.
    Warriant and Orkan like this.
  8. The best part of the Eldar speed is you can catch them by fast attack spam but don't tell that to LSM they don't want to hear it they only want to consider Eldar OP. Buts its worth it to see posts like this where clearly some people just don't understand how the Eldar work cause they are "Loyal" marines and refuse to even play Eldar. There have been 3 things that have made the Eldar truely OP, two of which were quickly fixed.

    1. The Fusion Pistol's first version. Back in the day the fusion pistol used to have almost a 20 second overheat time and in this time if you clipped a player they were dead from a full heat stack and you could kill tanks in one overheat. Well this got nerfed into the ground and the pistol is rarely if ever used these days to the point Brent just buffed it on the UAT.

    2. Stacking Damage Reduction. Well once again this wasn't intended but the first version of the warlock Embolden spell stacked its dmg reduction when it was cast by multiple warlocks and as soon as this was found it was quickly changed.

    3. Eldar Road Kill. This is not unique to Eldar but its easy to do with Eldar due to being a hover tank. Move just the slightest and boom your dead. The other races can do this as well at slow speeds but you have to be directly in front or behind the tank. As the devs have said they want to fix it but its going to be a rework of the physics of how tanks hurt you so its not that simple of a fix. In compensation Eldar tanks are far weaker than any other vehicle in the game because of this mobility.

    Are Eldar OP? No. But you know as soon as I post this 5 people who hate me will come in saying Eldar Bias and the rest will be LSM fanboys raging behind the "We are the weakest faction we know Eldar are OP you just don't want your faction nerfed" to them I say... when you learn to aim you will do much better. I aim when I play LSM or CSM and I can do it at 15 FPS, surely you can do it at a decent frame rate.
  9. Orkan Orkan Arkhona Vanguard

    I play Eldar almost exclusively and I have to add to this that Eldar in the current patch are not OP.

    However there are numerous problems with the faction on Live such as vehicle roadkill which is dangerous to friend and foe alike.

    Warlocks are too strong in Offence for a support class but this is true of all faction's healers.

    Firedragons destroy abandoned tanks within seconds but so do other AV specialists. Perhaps the issue here is the vehicle HP pool in general.

    Eldar Melee is just as viable as any other faction but often loses drawn out fights due to the best weapons being only power swords and they do not have the highest durability. Melee in EC has its own problems and these are the source of most frustrations. Everybody knows about the issues with Powerfists and Powerklaws.

    Eldar have a sprint 'speed bonus' of 15%. Work out 15% of 5m/s and you see that it is a negligible number and certainly not enough to kite anything especially with the current melee lunge distances and lock on mechanic.

    The supposed hitbox of the faction as being smaller is seriously being spoken about by the DEVs as a faction specific advantage despite the fact that there is NO quantifiable method to balance that mathematically.

    What I mean by that is that there should exist a ruleset where the balance of every class is defined by certain characteristics. If speed and hitbox are to be seriously understood to be core gameplay faction balance features then we need to have stats that reflect that.

    For every percentage point of speed a class has it loses (say) 0.5% of health.

    So set base speed at 5m/s and health at 100. If a faction is to be defined as 50% faster they should have 25% less health. This means a class moving at 7.5m/s would have 75 health to balance.

    For every pixel area of hitbox you gain health by a particular percentage.

    say hitbox area is 100 pixels (for the sake of argument) and health at this standard is 100.
    If the hitbox area is increased on a faction class then we must calculate so:

    Faction hitbox area 150 pixels squared. We then raise the health by a similar percentage to 150 health.
    Larger characters are easier to hit so we are fair and add health to compensate. This is how Orks would be classified.

    LSM and Chaos forces being Human are the baseline stat and require no modification yet still have their movement speed and health defined by the same equation.

    If the hitbox is smaller say 50 pixels squared then consequently health diminishes to 50 HP to compensate.
    Smaller characters are harder to hit so health is reduced to compensate. This is how Eldar should be calculated.

    To calculate Total HP of a faction once the two characteristics eg speed and hitbox size are known you simply add the health from the hitbox calculation to the speed calculation and there you have your faction statistic.

    I have generated these numbers randomly as an example but it would be trivial once a system is in place to actually fairly design the factions properly.

    This becomes a rational and BALANCED way to determine all future faction statistics. The key point is that there needs to be a method to the madness and not some arbitrary claims and random numbers that are claimed to be a fair way to put all existing factions on an equal footing.

    Nobody plays Eldar in Eternal Crusade because they want to be 'the speedy faction with small hitboxes'. I hope this post puts that myth to bed.
  10. Tarantus Tarantus Arkhona Vanguard

    Its old tale, eldar are balanced as much as its possible in PVP game. Yes, along with orks they have "hard to rea" heavy attack/bash animations but otherwise they are ok. There were some problems before, we cannot deny.

    For this day its a joke "eldar OP".
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