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How do these weapon match-ups play out for you?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Forj, Aug 29, 2017.

  1. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Just curious about other people's experience and thoughts on these match-ups. Not which one is better, but when you're using one and facing the other, which one wins the trade? And which one do you think should win the trade? Are the answers different? Assume both weapons start firing at roughly the same time, rather than one getting the drop on the other. We all know that who fires first wins if there's more than half a second in it.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Plasmagun
    • Heavy Bolter vs Bolter
    • Heavy Bolter vs Meltagun
    • Heavy Bolter vs Stalker Bolter
    • Heavy Bolter vs Shuriken Cannon
    • Meltagun vs Gravgun
    • Bolter vs Meltagun
    • Bolter vs ASC
    • Bolter vs TLASC
    • Bolter vs Shoota
    • Bolter vs Big Shoota any other matchups you want to comment on.

    For me

    • Heavy Bolter vs Plasmagun: If the PG has cover to jink and the HB isn't braced, PG wins. Braced HB beats PG; Should be: HB if PG suppressed
    • Heavy Bolter vs Bolter: If the HB isn't braced, Bolter has a good chance, almost certain if they ADAD. If I have the Bolter and circle strafe around a HB I lose, if I have a HB and they circle me I lose; Should be: Heavy Bolter at anything over 30m
    • Heavy Bolter vs Meltagun: Highly situational. Facetanking, HB probably wins. Same as above depending on who is circling who; Should be: Meltagun assuming it's in range.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Stalker Bolter: A Stalker bolter cannot kill me so long as I maintain full suppression on them. If it drops off or even decreases, there's a good chance the Stalker will win before I can build up suppression again; Should be: Stalker Bolter, they're a counter to heavy weapons
    • Heavy Bolter vs Shuriken Cannon: Braced vs Braced, unbraced vs unbraced, HB wins almost every time. Braced weapon beats unbraced. Unbraced HB can beat braced SC if it has a headstart and the SC doesn't move; Should be: even match
    • Meltagun vs Gravgun: My melta vs a Gravgun will end in both our deaths due to the DoT. Uncertain how my gravgun fares against Melta; Should be: Melta within effective range, gravguns have longer range and prevent closing that gap.
    • Bolter vs Meltagun: Bolter wins at anything more than point blank. Much short of a full burn won't kill an LSM, even with lingering DoT, even an Apothecary; Should be: Melta but only within effective range
    • Bolter vs ASC: Bolter wins every time; Should be: even match
    • Bolter vs TLASC: This goes about 50/50 for me, so long as I keep my ADAD frequency high and amplitude low. Should be: even match, seems ok
    • Bolter vs Shoota: Bolter has a good chance, increasing at ranges over 20m; Should be: even match
    • Bolter vs Big Shoota: Bolter still has a good chance, increasing at ranges over 40m. Big Shoota needs a headstart for the suppression to make a difference; Should be: I'm not sure on this one
  2. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    Your format is solid, I'll steal it just for the sake of uniformity :p
    All of these assume that there is strafing going on btw since comparing stationary vs stationary is unrealistic.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Plasmagun: Unless the plasma gunner is within 20m of the heavy bolter - thus too close for a heavy bolter player to rely on suppression - the heavy bolter player will win if their aim isn't terribad. Crouching with a heavy bolter and firing for headshots results in 600+ DPS at up to 70m. Should be: As is.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Bolter: Braced or crouch firing heavy bolter wins every time outside of point blank where the bolter player is circlestrafing faster than the HB can rotate. Should be: Apply more suppression to scoped bolters and this matchup is fair.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Meltagun: If in range, melta every time since suppression does not affect it, otherwise heavy bolter. Should be: As is.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Stalker Bolter: A suppressed stalker bolter is a useless stalker bolter, you also will kill them faster than they kill you if you're braced and fire for the head. Should be: As is.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Shuriken Cannon: Zero difference, they are functionally the same weapon in TTK, check @Oan-Mkoll's EHP sheet. Should be: As is.
    • Meltagun vs Gravgun: Melta wins every time. Should be: As it is, grav is a support weapon melta is an offensive weapon.
    • Bolter vs Meltagun: Bolter wins almost all of the time, the only time I ever fall to a meltagun if I have a bolter is if my frames start dropping and I can't hit as accurately. Should be: As is, bolter is a primary offensive weapon while the melta is AV first and offensive second, grav is AV first and support second.
    • Bolter vs ASC: Bolter wins if you both stand still and trade hits, Eldar wins if they ADAD or use cover - asymmetric balance, Eldar rely more on healers for head on assaults and thus comparing classes 1:1 is as stupid as comparing units 1:1 in starcraft. Should be: As is, I can't say that I routinely lose to LSM/CSM players on my Eldar in 1v1.
    • Bolter vs TLASC: Within 25m, TLASC every time assuming that the player using it hits the head, beyond, bolter every time. Should be: As it is if it is meant to fill the role of a stormbolter, otherwise give it a maximum damage range increase.
    • Bolter vs Shoota: Shoota is less effective at long range and loses at mid range because it is a close quarters assault weapon, it has tremendous DPS and will overpower a bolter at point blank unless the guy using it can't aim. Should be: As is.
    • Bolter vs Big Shoota: Big Shoota > Bolter in everything other than long range fights due to the suppression, even with a scope. Should be: As is, Orks are close range combatants and suffer less accuracy at range with the upside of a lot more offensive power at close range.
    BrotherDamnatus, TheMadnesss and Forj like this.
  3. Teef Trooper909 Recruit

    Bit of a long winded post to say Bolter beats everything.
    Trashed, Njord-Halfhand and Iyan like this.
  4. Ya. I luv da sound ov me shoota! Don't you?

    Nuffin beats lightin' up 'Umies in da face wiv me Tracey Shoota (big shoota) or Rodeo Shoota (unique shoota).

    Well, ok maybe stickin' em wiv a Supa Stikkbomb an shootin' it is more fun
  5. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    Back to gathering data, are you? ^^
    • Heavy Bolter vs Bolter: Depends on high ground, cover, range etc, also some luck regarding supression and headshots. I'd say on point-blank, its about 50/50 with a rising disadvantage for the Bolter with increasing distance. Should be: HB, being a counter to tacticals and you dont want to face that thing head-on with a rifle.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Meltagun: Decent chance to win for the MG(FG). I'd say I get gunned down if we start shooting at the same time, but if I have any kind of advantage, thats usually enough. (How comes this doesnt add to the HB's "heat"?) Should be: HB again, Melta-gun is not AP
    • Heavy Bolter vs Stalker Bolter: With Stalker being designed specifically to counter entrenchment, my bet would always be on the Stalker, but then again it also usually gets the first shot. In a fair fight or even on short range, I have to go with the Havoc. Should be: Stalker Bolter
    • Heavy Bolter vs Shuriken Cannon: Any DPS-race would be won by the HB and its also better at extended range. If both have ample cover on medium range it could look differently, as the SC has stronger supression. Should be: Equal, DR being the only Eldar class suppsoe dto match its counterpart in a direct engagement.
    • Meltagun vs Gravgun: I engage GG's, knowing I can burn them before they can crush me. Always. A grav-cannon is tougher but still possible. Should be: Melta-gun, assuming it starts in range.
    • Bolter vs Meltagun: The Bolter should always win. However the visual noise and panic weight in very strongly against inexperienced players which leads to them often missing too many of their shots. Should be: Bolter, AP vs AV
    • Bolter vs ASC: Bolter is superior at all ranges and should win every fair fight, still most fights if you assume equal EHP on both sides. Should be: Bolter wins, just not as effortlessly as right now.
    • Bolter vs TLASC: Same story, but this time the Bolter-user has to make the first few shots count and cant afford as many mistakes. Should be: TLASC is superior in close-quarter-combat
    Forj likes this.
  6. Eagle 11 Eagle_11 Well-Known Member

    Luv using my Saddams Golden AKDed Shiny Big Shoota wif da accuracy grip. Dat dakka drives umiez crayz.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Anything else than Shuriken Cannon
    Depends on a factor:
    - Is it Voice of Emperor ? if yes HB will win.
    • Heavy Bolter vs Shuriken Cannon
    The shuriken cannon can win(even against Voice of Emperor) thanks to rate of fire(thing is like the MG3 of this game) aslong user has any idea of controlling the weapon.
    • Meltagun vs Gravgun
    Why would you even do such a thing ?
    • Bolter vs Meltagun
    Bolter go ahead and simply headshot him.
    • Bolter vs Dire Avenger
    Bolter go ahead and simply headshot him. Unless DA gets buffed with Enhance its not looking bright for him.
    • Bolter vs Shoota
    Rodeo shoota can beat you at close range, but he should be dead before coming that near. The regular shoota is.. lets say in 90% of cases where its going to be of any use the ork is better off having taken the big shoota instead.
    • Bolter vs Big Shoota
    The suppresion can get messy on Bolter user. An Big shoota does not spread as quickly so keep strafing(no, not ADADing in the spot, actual strafing).
    Forj likes this.
  7. Razmirth Sneaky-krumpin Subordinate

    I'll speak on two of these

    Bolter vs ASC- this matchup is highly dependant on the eldar behind the gun. If you take star shards for extra pen sith Tex grip, and LAnd your headshots, AND ADAD strafe properly, you can stilll come out on top against an low-average skill Bolter user. Vs skilled played you're toast.

    Bolter vs TLASC- this is more of an even match up. Usually I can down a guy if I shoot first, and if we fire at the same time it usually turns out with both of us killing each other at the same time, or one or the other living with a shred of life left. Not bad for eldar, who normally can't go 1v1. I always use this gun no matter what. With Tex grip and heavy barrel it's almost as accurate as a ASC, so it pretty well makes it obsolete. Only reason to take ASC is for starshards or fast reload, which has its uses, as TLASC takes a long time to reload. Granted if you're playing smart, you won't be in the open any way.
    Forj likes this.
  8. Demetri Dominov Demetri_Dominov Arkhona Vanguard

    I think ADAD as a concession towards any victory is a bad call.

    I mostly agree with you @Forj, though the bit where HB vs Stalkers isn't entirely clear in relation to the Should Be part. My only thought is that if the HB is suppressing the Stalker, the Stalker cannot fire back and would obviously lose if it's standing in the open. Otherwise, if the Stalker is in cover, can move out of suppression, then it would win.
    Forj likes this.
  9. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Thanks for the responses guys, it's interesting to see where we all differ. In particular, those who say they experience Melta beats Gravgun: simply not true for me unless I shove it up his nose. So it confirms (for me anyways) that the match-ups that I experience are not the general experience, which further confirms my theory about how the whole game experience changes at latencies higher than about 250ms.

    Honestly, what it feels like to me is that my hitbox occupies more than one position at a time, as if it's about 300ms long. Not likely to be true, but that's what it feels like, especially considering that my ADAD seems less effective, and I get hit quite often when I'm zigzagging randomly against long rage fire. It's either that or I just take more damage and deal less damage, which is also highly unlikely.

    As far as I'm concerned, there is something fundamentally broken at high latency, beyond just the normal effects where you don't see the first few hits. Fortunately it's far from unplayable or unenjoyable, it just makes for frequent "that's bullshit!" moments which is not a good play experience.
    Bugz likes this.
  10. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    I mean, that's not something that is unique to EC.

    Playing any game that relies on reactions to survive in a FPS/TPS environment with more than 120 ping is unplayable for competitive play, anything over 150 is likely to have network issues frequently interrupting your ability to play and everything after 200 is the point where you should probably stop playing.
    Forj likes this.

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