Devs just need to improve lascannons and orks zap guns in order to counter HB in its' current state. Just increase charge speed of lascannon and these HB dudes are done.
I think they could add more recoil while mounted like Trukk's big shoota has. This could prevent HB/SC sniping.
5 hits is 0.5 seconds? Well, on raw stats it says 6, so lets assume 7-8 which is 0.7-0.8 respectively. Melee strike is somewhat 0.7, with 0.3 delay between strikes. Yeah, having in mind clangs bash and so on 2 hits is definetly shorter then 8 rounds. Hint: no, they are not. With smart outplay, 2 hits(which can go all 5 in case of HB, who have enough points for durability boosters) is 5-10 seconds long. The problem with heavy bolter is that "its realm" is almost the whole field with 10m radius being "not there realm". Speaking about fair share of area in zones. Naturally, artillery, vehicles and snipers, in other words all long-ranged fighter, could theoretically counter HB spam and enclose the circle of counters, having more then 10m uncomfortable zone and all that. But since we have(as a counters) none of above, we have what we have, 80% heavy teams(and instead of typical old-days SM MoN whine, its actual 80%, not 25%). Its the same as it was before in the beginning of alpha. Because of the exact same issues. However, the issue with 10m zoning that pisses me is new disrupt mechanic changes. Now you can eat 4-5 bolt rounds before enemy fire gets disrupted and they stop firing into melee strikes. When enclosing on heavy bolter this is a death sentence for low-dura build even when first HB round hit them when their melee animation started.(with 3 rounds hitting them after their strike connected)
In the interests of disclosure, I was taking samples of me shooting to address the range issues people have. I was not sampling examples of me dying. I died plenty more times, to all the usual things.
Yes, the HB can theoretically hit anything in a wide swath. However, with it's FoV restrictions, sometime lack of adequate brace points, and all the cover and barriers, the killing field of the HB can drop dramatically. Intelligent placement can mitigate that, but to make it seem like the HB can hit everything in front of it with impunity is not true, despite what perceptions might give. Good points on the melee times and numbers. I will counter with even if I am clanging someone, the clangs last only until their stamina has recharged for them to roll behind me and get me either with a backstab, or rolling away and pistoling me (even when they go for a pistol, I can't get my weapon up in time to counter and fire). Yes, low dura builds can suffer, but that is the trade off for low dura builds, and only IF the HB is paying attention, and gets into position, and has their weapon ready, has no one else attacking him, AND has their timing right to start firing. It happens, but it is pretty tough. At least for me. I'm assuming the 80% HB teams is...again...Harkus? I haven't seen that much spam in other maps often. And when I have, the spamming team has been PUNISHED by an embarrassing defeat.
Spamming team always wins on defense on vehicle-oriented tug of war(which are the only remaining tug of war maps). Simply Zedek is second worst offender, Maggon is third. The issue for that is obviously the abundance of open-field or, shall i say, lack of closed covered approach. The problem with this is you can't counter spam them with HB for obvious reasons, so its just the defending team that gets all the "fun". Backstab is part of smart outplay and can be countered(in terms - you are not getting a free backstab), relatively easy as well. I am not saying you can plain outmelee a melee specialist, because that would be damn retarded, i am saying you can reliably hold off for 5-10 seconds if you know how to melee. Pistoling is tricky. It requires enemy not starting to fire because you actually outdps pistol with heavy weapon, including set up time, if you suffered less then 2 melee hits.(or less then 1 hit wit powerfist). It is the fastest approach(taking 4-5 seconds including mandatory first hit prelude) against skilled in melee HB, but its tricky in this way. Weak dura or not, they should not suffer when they are already in melee range. This changes to disrupt must, and will, in time, go away.
Valid points. Countering spam is difficult, but as I pointed out, a offensive HB covering can allow a safe approach for the rest of the team. It is tricky, but I've done it with 0 comms and just pugs, so it isn't a guild only trick. Tug of wars are tough, especially with the timer system. Might be a combinatio of factors, not just the spam. Concur, I can buy myself 5-10 seconds, if the factors all line up. I'd say it is a minorty case though, and most of the time it is a pretty quick death for the HB. You mentioned being good at melee, well, I've said before that I play HB so I don't need to worry about melee. Crappy answer, I know. However, if I were good enough to melee as a HB, why would I bother with the HB as opposed to a melee class? I am sure the melee system is far from set, and there will be more changes. If it makes you feel better, a HB is disrupted by EVERYONE, so even if I am about to gun someone, if a "friend" gets too close trying "help", well, there goes my chance fun someone.
You would bother because Heavy is as viable as melee and you just prefer its playstyle more? The issue with that is that game shouldn't and, seeing devs approach to balance, gladly won't be revolving about interactions of a person who knows and doesn't know how to fight. If you don't know how to counterplay in melee engagement due to lack of desire to know the system, that's your choice and therefore your problems. Since its PvP don't expect the things to become easier simply because you don't want to do anything for them to be that way. No, that doesn't make me feel better. Even if friend cover line of sight of HB(due to his strange line of thinking and mine positioning in melee encounter) this usually ends up in me and his ally dead and then, optionally revived. This is because even a a +7m mark when set up already HB will kill me without any chance of doing anything(well, there is a chance if i have full hp + armor or 2 rolls, but whatever) unless i am a cool JA player. But jumpers this days are rather crippled in actual melee, so they have their own disadvantages in other areas And regarding the tug of war. The issue with HB spam is only that it has no counter. A melee assault group will not be able to counter HB spam. Its bloody difficult and this "tactic" is the most effective on defense and because of this its the most used one. Regarding lone HB suppressing, i found supression rather crap ever since the changes to it. You, as a HB, would be dead by supressing even one target that has high ground and fires at you, because it can reliably put shots in your ass through your supression.
That is how I always wanted the HB to work. It is a powerful weapon. When I play with a HB I want to play with that powerful weapon. I also want the dev/havoc to lose the slowness--power armor?!? The devs need to think of creative ways to encourage other weapon use rather than nerfing. I was always a lascannon fan on TT and this lock on and cool down kills the fantasy. The HB now is how I thought it should be. But the other problem is that in the first couple of minutes you were being fired on by a loota. Those plasma shots were wild. You could have been killed earlier. That is an ork problem. Long live the HB!!!!
Ok, I think I managed to replicate the issue being talked about, but first some communication housekeeping The Olipsis shooting is what I call medium range, and the Zedek shooting is at the upper end of what I call Long Range. The issue you're talking about is occurring at what I call extreme range. It's a bit out of date, but this guide describes the range terminology I use, which seems to have been adopted over on my HB Feedback thread. On the video itself, I'm in the habit of stop/starting recording when something worthwhile happens, so I can find it easily. I must have forgotten to turn recording back on for a period, so the video is missing about three deaths, two of which were getting ambushed by melee, and one where the capture point wasn't as clear as I thought it was. But the point of the video is the shooting, not the deaths. On to the video! My humblest apologies to the Eldar on the other end. I had one instance that I think is representative of the HB sniper, in which my reaction was "holy shit I can't believe I got him". I fired 14 shots to secure the kill, but there was an allied dead marker nearby, so the target may not have been on full health. Other kills I got at that range were at the same time I was getting assist kills too, so the targets were already engaged and probably damaged. Anyone on the move at that range though, was a bitch to track, and you can see me trying and failing to get those kills. There are clearly some kills that take more shots fired than others. I often find myself surprised when a kill goes down because I think I'm taking too long, and then it suddenly drops. So perhaps the other end has a similar experience. Overall, the experience was unreliable and unrewarding. I would not choose to play this way. I was not contributing to the team except when I was engaging targets at the point I was braced at. I managed a terrible score and kill count for a full term match. I would only be taking targets of opportunity at that range, I would prioritise closer targets as both greater threat and more likely to be killed by me. And if I found myself taking that many targets at extreme range because closer ones didn't present themselves, I would move to a better location.
