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Heavy Bolter suppression and why it needs to go

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AncientRaig, Jun 3, 2016.

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How should suppression, and the Heavy Bolter, be changed, if at all?

  1. Remove it and add 40k Space Marine-style Heavy Bolter mechanics

    5.0%
  2. Keep it and add 40k Space Marine-style Heavy Bolter mechanics

    18.3%
  3. Remove it and change nothing

    1.7%
  4. Keep it and change nothing

    46.7%
  5. Other (Please specify)

    10.0%
  6. Reduce effects of suppression and add Space Marine-style Heavy Bolter mechanics

    18.3%
  1. Zaeryn Zaeryn Master

    For starters, character Armor needs to be raised and HP needs to be lowered but given a small degree of out-of-combat HP regen.
    That said, weapon stats should be;
    Bolter TTK vs Tactical: 1.75-sec, 8 Bolts, 0.25-sec Fire Rate
    Bolter Accuracy: 3.4-cm spread at 24-meters
    Bolter Damage Drop Ranges: 48 and 96-meters

    H.Bolter TTK vs Tactical: 1.2-sec, 7 Bolts, 0.2-sec FR(1.4-sec counting 0.2-sec Ready Up time)
    H.Bolter Accuracy: 4.3-cm spread at 36-meters(~2.9-cm spread at 24-meters)
    H.Bolter Damage Drop Ranges: 72 and 144-meters

    In addition to dealing more damage per shot and firing more quickly, the Heavy Bolter should be more accurate and have longer range than the Bolter, statistically out-performing it at long and medium ranges; however, the movement penalties that come with the H.Bolter should make it less effective than the Bolter in close range.

    Any individual player with a Bolter fighting a H.Bolter at medium to long ranges should know the only ways they can reliably win are with notably greater skill or a notably greater game connection/performance.

    While most weapons should have good hip-fire accuracy, at least for close/medium range combat, moving should increase the weapon's recoil and cause slight screen sway, both of which affect the player's accuracy without changing the weapon in any way. Such movement penalties could reduce/remove the need for increasing weapon spread when moving. The actual amount of sway when walking/jogging could be small, really only impacting long range engagements.

    Aiming with a ranged weapon should not tighten the weapon's spread as the act of zooming in already causes the spread to tighten(I.E. 3.4-cm spread at 24-meters, 50% zoom causes 3.4-cm spread at 36-meters) and the now visually larger enemies are easier to target. Aiming should reduce recoil but also reduce move speed slightly. Zooming with scoped weapons would further reduce move speed.

    Bracing should occur anytime the player attempts to Aim with a Heavy Weapon, even if they are not in cover. Cover Brace would have the drawback of a limited firing arc, while Standing Brace would have the drawback of limited turning rate. Bracing should only take a moment(I.E. 0.5-sec) and players should be able to instantly Dodge out of a Brace. Dodge should have a cooldown(0.5-sec, increased to 0.75-sec when out of Stamina).

    All weapons' shots should cause the hit player to flinch, throwing off their aim. Preferably, the flinch should not be auto-corrected by the game, meaning if a player could survive enough shots their aim could be forced skyward if they didn't counter-act it manually with their mouse.
    A H.Bolter's shots would of course cause more flinch than a Bolter's, which further improves the HB's medium/long range effectiveness/superiority.

    While some screen blur/flinch are understandable the reticle spread is not and should certainly be removed.

    You are a Super Hero fighting other Super Heroes, with weapons that can kill Super Heroes, so you should die if you come under continuous and direct fire from that weapon. A Heavy Bolter is supposed to be more effective at killing Infantry at long ranges than the Bolter, which in turn is what causes enemies to become naturally suppressed and take cover(AKA fear of death).

    1.) The idea behind creating a product is creating one that consumers will enjoy and thus purchase in great quantities, providing you with great quantities of currency. If someone comes up with an idea that is better than what the Devs have thought up, instead of wanting to stay "original" and keep with their idea they should do the intelligent thing and use the better idea, giving credit where due.

    2.) Great amounts of the WH40K universe are completely realistic as light is still light, gravity is still gravity, people still need food, water and air, space is deadly to most beings, the elements we have they also have, etc. etc. The utilization of The Warp to add surreal aspects to the universe does not immediately strip away all realism from the setting.

    3.) The game is about shooting but that is not all it is about. Shooting should be for medium and long range combat, too, and will be if/when the game gets properly designed and balanced. Shooting someone in the face with your Bolt Pistol should either force them into cover so they don't go Down or take them Down if they keep taking face shots. If they did take cover you get to advance into melee range and finish them off. If they went Down you get to advance and Execute them. Allies can also shoot and damage enemies to force them into cover or simply shoot at them to draw their fire, allowing you to advance.

    I agree with natural suppression.

    A Storm Bolter fills the SMG role in the Astartes Armory. The Heavy Bolter is their LMG as their genetically-enhanced super strength, amplified by their Power Armour, allows them to lift and lug heavy loads with relative ease. Rather than setting the weapon up on a tripod in some trenches/pillbox/etc. etc. they can lock their Armour or set up on cover to brace against the recoil.

    Hip-firing on the move should still allow the HB to provide some covering fire, being more likely to suppress enemies than kill them at close to medium ranges.
    Stationary hip-firing should allow for accurate enough shots to either kill or suppress with equal ease at medium range and provide significant long range suppression.
    Braced firing should make the HB a deadly Anti-Infantry weapon, killing more than it suppresses at medium range and doing well at killing or suppressing at long range.

    Those are also the people that are killed more often and end up spending comparatively more time looking at the respawn screen than their allies that actually used cover/Armor/healing items/the-game's-mechanics-other-than-just-left-clicking-with-a-gun.

    The HB only becomes a front-line killing weapon if people fighting against it don't use cover and allow HBs to continually kill them. That is what makes it a support weapon. People/players know that it can murder them more effectively than many/most other weapons so they make the intelligent decision not to engage it 1v1 at the ranges that are beneficial to the HB. In turn, those players taking cover from the HB get flanked by the HB's allies and killed or they use teamwork/tactics to overcome the HB. Taking damage from a HB because you were out in the open puts you at a disadvantage. You can decide to try and out-shoot the HB but according to statistics you should have less than a 50% chance of victory.

    What you, and apparently bE, fail to realize, is that every weapon in Wh40K is supposed to be a killing weapon. The reason the HB fills the "support" role is because pretty much every one in the WH40K universe knows that a HB can murdilate them quicker than many things in existence, including the staple Bolter. So, because they have a greater likelihood of triumphing over an enemy using the Bolter in combat, at least in medium and long range, they take cover to protect themselves from the deadly fire of the HB and engage the HB's allies and/or bring their own heavy weapons/snipers to naturally suppress/kill the HB or send Assaults in to deal with them, etc. etc. counters and yummies.

    Because this game does and should have higher TTKs with the default weapons than many/most others do it can afford to have heavy weapons with lower TTKs than the default without being able to instantly hose enemies away in an OP manner.

    Completely untrue as any intelligent/skilled player will take cover when low on life because they know that dying removes them from the fight longer than taking cover and recovering does, even if they cannot completely recover. 10 out of 10 those players that shoot back no matter what will die and be on the respawn screen frequently, constantly leaving their team outnumbered.

    A better separator for guns like HB and Autocannon are DMG/Fire Rate/Accuracy/Range differences
    HB TTK vs Tactical: 1.2-sec, 7 Bolts, 0.2-sec FR
    HB Accuracy: 4.3-cm spread at 36-meters
    HB Damage Drop Ranges: 72 and 144-meters

    Autocannon TTK vs Tactical: 1.2-sec, 5 Shots, 0.3-sec FR
    AC Accuracy: 6-cm spread at 48-meters(4.5-cm spread at 36-meters)
    AC Damage Drop Ranges: 98 and 192-meters

    HB could remain hit-scan but the Autocannon could use ballistic physics so that its shots have travel time, combining with its slower FR to make it easier to miss at longer ranges but having that partly made up for with a small AoE DMG zone.

    Firing from the hip on the move should be effective against targets within ~36-meters, stationary hip-fire against targets within ~72-meters and brace fire against targets up to ~108 to 144-meters away.
    While I feel natural suppression should be more than enough for the weapon, I could understand some minor screen blur along with/or flinch/screen sway, showing that even if you aren't quite afraid your nerves have been rattled and adrenaline spiked.
    Va-serra likes this.
  2. Leaker Leaker Recruit

    @Zaeryn, that has to be the record holder for most responses to individual posts in a single post. Truly an epic achievement.

    It's obvious that you are quite passionate, but I will encourage you to soften the verbiage a bit. It's great that you have your ideas for how things should play out, but saying certain things NEED to happen, and then detailing to the hundredths place what the weapon stats should be is not a good way to start out your essay. Technique only, but I would also refrain from using confrontational verbiage such as, "any intelligent player would...".

    Housekeeping aside, I will mostly leave other people to debate your responses to their specific posts if they choose, but I will take issue with your responses to Forj. Who is missing the point if bE and most of the HB community are in agreement with the HB implementation, but it is contrary to your idea? Yes, all weapons are potentially killing weapons, but that does not mean it is their primary purpose. The primary role of Lascannon is not to kill, but to destroy vehicles, as an example.

    I will also point out the HB is a support weapon because of the suppression. Eventually the HB will be balanced and effective at killing in a certain band (medium range), but it should provide suppression at all ranges.
    Saying that the sole purpose of the HB is to kill at medium range robs a vital dynamic from the game. Then the shooting game just becomes rock/paper/scissors based on range. Storm wins close, HB medium, Stalker at long. I do not concur with the notion of "natural suppression". As was pointed out, when lives are unlimited, and respawns are just a couple seconds, fear of death becomes an afterthought. Fear of ineffectiveness, brought on by a HB effectively using suppression, THAT can have a much larger tactical effect than just mowing down anyone in the HB's field of view.

    As for defending my words, imagine the game world your statements of turning the HB into an instant death murdermachine would create. It would be a stalemate of WWI proportions as each side would only field HBs, and moving from cover would mean instant death. Concur that outshooting a HB in its prime location (braced and at medium range) should be a foolish endeavor, but what about outside of that prime location? That is where the fun, the strategy, and the skill is. Both players believe they have a slight disadvantage/advantage that both players choose to believe can be overcome with their skill. The correct person doesn't see the respawn screen.
  3. DevilfishJack Steam Early Access

    1. I am well aware the purpose of a commercial product and determining the "betterness" of an idea is subjective and hardly conclusive. Don't talk to me like I am unaware of the basics of capitalism.

    2. I am a chemist, a veteran, and an avid speculative fiction enthusiast and practically nothing in the entirety of the 40k universe makes even the remotest sense. The anthropology, technology, travel, infrastructure, biology, and strategy are all complete fantasy made only to serve the (heavily "borrowed") story.

    And most unrealistic of all, people hate living in the grim dark ANYWHERE. People joke, they laugh, they have fun stories even on the brink of devastation. So the fundamental thread of the entire universe is thematically inconstant with the only kind of existence mankind has ever known.

    3. I disagree that this game is about shooting, but this a matter of opinion. We don't see eye to eye but I respect the difference of opinion.
    Leaker likes this.
  4. Zaeryn Zaeryn Master

    Saying certain things need to happen and then giving explicit detail why is exactly how I should start my "essay" because it gets right to the point.

    bE and most of the HB community are clearly missing the point and/or don't know what/how a proper Heavy Bolter is/should perform. Yes, the primary role of the Lascannon is destroying vehicles but it is still a killing weapon because it possess great power in each shot, making it lethal to many Infantry targets.

    The HB will still be a support weapon with natural suppression because players will be less keen on exposing themselves to HB fire that can kill them faster than Bolter fire, especially at medium and long ranges. Or rather, the HB should be able to. I never once said the HB's sole purpose is to kill at medium range. Not to mention the fact the HB is a long range weapon. Then the shooting becomes rock/paper/scissors based on range and skill, which is exactly how a shooter is supposed to perform with different classes of weapons. Heavy weapons are supposed to be better at long range than rifles but worse in close. They're supposed to be much better than SMGs at long range but much worse at close. The good thing about games like EC is, you have cover and/or various mechanics to protect you from fire at various ranges, allowing you to at least partially mitigate an advantage an enemy has against you and/or allow you to reach a range that is favorable to your weapon. Respawns are more than just a couple of seconds. Players without fear of death(AKA unintelligent players) are the ones that die the most frequently and spend more time than the rest of their team waiting to respawn, in the end leaving their team out-numbered by their enemy more often than not.

    Now lets leave the imaginary world and return to the real one where I never once ever said the HB should be an instant death mudermachine. Clearly you didn't even bother to read my post as I even have a specific TTK for the HB against C/SMs. So, with my HB, there would be no stalemates and no teams of all HBs as they could be countered via Shield-bros/Assaults/etc. etc. that can use the Shield/cover/their mobility to stay out of the HB's sight and approach from close-range, Tacticals with Stalkers countering from long range, etc. etc. Moving from cover under a HB's watch with no cover would likely mean a quick death if there was no other cover nearby and/or you had no means of protecting yourself out in the open(I.E. Shield). As far as concurring, that is exactly how my system would work. If you are more skilled than your opponent in making use of your strengths and taking advantages of their weaknesses, you should win a 1v1 engagement with them more often than not.

    1. "Betterness" can be objectively determined.

    2. You're right. Humans don't have hearts that pump blood, don't have blood, don't have brains to think with, don't have legs to walk with, don't have eyes to see with, don't have ears to listen with, don't have noses to smell with, don't have nerves to feel with, don't have taste buds to taste with, don't have lungs to hold air or a diaphragm to make them breathe, don't have air to breathe even if they could, don't have jet turbines on aircraft for planetary travel/other engine types for space travel, don't have light, don't have gravity, don't have heat... Nothing at all in WH40K makes sense. You are so totes right. /sarcasm.

    That's more an indication that times are worse than anything we could have imagined, so while people in our day and age may still joke and laugh and have fun stories even on the brink of devastation(which do still exist in WH40K, simply in smaller numbers than we might have in modern day situations), people in WH40K are far more down-trodden. Imagine The Great Depression. Yes, there were likely jokes, laughter and fun stories but surely far less than there were beforehand.

    3. This isn't a difference of opinion it is you refusing to accept fact. Fact, Shooting is a core mechanic of Eternal Crusade. That means, on some level/to some degree, this game is about shooting.
  5. Marius Antarus AncientRaig Arkhona Vanguard

    Has anyone seen the new suppression that they added? I actually miss the old type, because my camera didn't start going literally everywhere and make me lose all control over something as simple as walking somewhere the second I get shot at. At least before all I lost control over was the ability to aim. Now I can't aim or run away, or even take cover. GG BE, glad to know you still want to hammer tactical/TEQs into the ground. Seriously, you get shot even from behind cover and you start swaying like a drunk. And apparently the new autocannon is OP as hell, I've been fighting Eldar all night so I have no idea, but from what I've seen in the garrison, it's nothing like my suggestion for the heavy bolter.
    Zaeryn likes this.
  6. Wiawyr Wiawyr Deacon

    This right here is the kind of knee-jerk reaction and ignorance of the topic that should never ever be present in a discussion.
  7. Marius Antarus AncientRaig Arkhona Vanguard

    Like I said, no idea if it actually is OP, but I heard some of the PG guys I was on with today saying it was a bit cheesy, so it might be just a little unbalanced.
  8. Wiawyr Wiawyr Deacon

    It's a weapon that was just added today, it counters SBs which is a new and novel thing since LSM cried and got PCs nerfed, and a zerg clan who rely on using SBs the majority of the time complained about it?

    Come on, guy. You can see some of these factors at play, right? Calling it OP or UP or anything at all on the first day is ridiculous. It needs time for people to get used to it before any evaluation of balance is made, as long as it's not doing something ridiculous like 1shotting everyone from across the map.
  9. Marius Antarus AncientRaig Arkhona Vanguard

    Mate. I agree with you. Largely because I haven't actually seen one to formulate my own opinion on it, but I still agree with you.
    Celestia likes this.
  10. Wiawyr Wiawyr Deacon

    Well, if I was coming on too strong, my apologies. People calling it OP has been a common theme today, so I probably saw what I was expecting more than what you were saying.

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