I doubt this will gain any traction due to many people just wanting to troll any thread I make, but maybe I'll get a good discussion with @Whitefox550 before a mod closes it due to flaming. We can start with Toughness values. If (and these are assumptions I hope @Whitefox550 will correct if I am wrong and I'll later edit my OP) we have equivalency of 80 as 4+ armor save, 110 as 3+ save, and 140 as a 2+ save, we can estimate effective values and usefulness of damage, as well as what -should- be more adequate representation of units/races. Orks. Base Toughness should hover around 80 (in terms of EC mechanics) due to being very lightly armored. It should perhaps be lower still but since the base weapons already (ironically) bypass most armor they should not, this would be useless. But because they are very bulky, healthy green bastards, they should have 150-200 HP Eldar. Like Orks, 80 should be the base. Other classes could have Power Armor equivalent gear but as per default, WYSIWYG. They have a LOT of tricks to supplement their light loadouts with high mobility and deadly accuracy. HP should be down in the 100-150 range. Marines. Here's our 110 base Toughness because of Power Armor. HP should comfortably sit in 125-150 range. When we look now at the armor mechanic we need to evaluate just how much EHP is gained by various levels of buffers. Orks generally don't have good armor, and make up for it with just being as tough as cancer to kill. Eldar on the other hand are fairly dainty, but advanced. IMHO they could be comfortably kitted to 100-150 Armor, but with a high regen pace to compliment. They are not front liners meant to soak fire. A few glances here and there, reposition, strike again from a more advantageous angle. Marines are the tanks here again, purely from Power Armor. An average base of 125-150 is already standard which feels comfy, but still shallow of soaking fire it should. This I feel should be more of the 6-10s regen time with more of a buffer to chew through, around 150-175+ armor, but damn if it breaks, you need to find cover pronto. It feels more appropriate to bulk up the armor bar but once you crack open the outer shell, that juicy nougat is very vulnerable. (Inb4 Bolter porn blah blah) I just want to say right now, this is my thoughts and opinions based as an IoM player since 4E when I played Guard. I'd like to add that I did build a small amount of 5E marines (Fists) as a side army and did pretty well, but not nearly as good as my IG. If we can PLEASE keep this as a civil discussion I think it would to miles to improve game balance or at least create dialogue which can give the factions more clear definition and identity.
Sure, Ill take less toughness (however your crazy brain came up with orks being less tough than marines, they are both 4 on the tabletop) when you translate the fact orks have 2 attacks, and marines and eldar one base. I would say double all our melee attack speeds and you can have your wish.
Again that's in EC definitions. Toughness isn't quite Toughness, its armor-style damage mitigation. As for your number of attacks, well... Sorry but no. Your number of attacks does not govern your attack speed. Orks have Initiative of only 2. You're slow. On top of that you're only S3, which means your attacks should likewise have very difficult times inflicting damage, but given how things pan out, it seems like every Ork is supposed to be a Nob, not one of the Boyz.
Orks also have the absurdly strong constitution to consider. Redundant organs, simplified and sturdy internals, thicker bones, arguably more muscle mass than a marine of equivalent weight, hard to destroy nervous systems, fast healing, and other toughness traits to consider. The fact that orks can be revived after being exposed to the vacuum of space with almost no damage or just replacing chunks of their brains with metal parts and have them actually work speaks volumes for just how hard an ork os to kill. This is a race the was literally engineered for combat vs the friggen necrons! Plus their "shitty" armor could very easily be something along the lines of 6inch plus solid steel plating or tank armor they looted and managed to bolt/afix to their body. Ork gear and constitution are based on how effective of a WAAAGGGHHH they are in. We have been told this fight is supposed to be huge. It only stands that the orks here would be equivalent to the task. Plus the longer this fight goes on with no major loses or death of leaders the stronger the orks will get. So if anything the green tide should just get stronger and stronger the longer the game is being played. Then add in all the stuff the orks could steal to make awesome lootz! I mean look at friggen agnathio! There are titans everywhere! How have they not converted those into something yet!? Just know the more you guys bring up lore with orks the more we can counter it woth other conveniently forgotten lore points. And tbh chaos should be getting boons from their dark gods for all the lsm and eldar blood being spilled here. If we really wanna use lore lsm and eldar would be screwed by this point.
That's... That's why I'm saying they should have a higher HP pool to reflect that. The way Toughness works in EC is stupid. They treat Toughness as 'armor' rather than armor as armor. If you want to talk about Meganobz then fine but those are equivalent to Terminators in terms of raw armor and durability. You can't say that would be a fair addition. Literally your only real options for Orks with base values are cardboard or walking tank. 'Eavy Armor gives you a 4+ save, meaning your toughness... would be 80. So yeah that means you're not getting anywhere close to what you would need to compete, but that just threw a wrench in my math, as a Boltgun should be mitigated somewhat by that level of armor. But again, the EC values are all very disconnected compared to actual values. Oh, and you should be bowing down and thanking bE for giving you Ork RELIC equipment considering the Dead Shiny Shoota is a one-per-army item.
Personally I think toughness is fine. Problem is the over abundance of penetration weapons for stupid low costs. The only weird toughness interaction I dont get is eldar shuriken weapons. I'm no expert but I thought those things were mono molecular edged blades capable of cutting through tank armor if fired in a concentrated spot. Plus the whole cutting completely through anything unprotected (faces, eyes, joints, holes in armors etc) which was represented (Ithink) in tabletop by a random crit application through dice rolls and a special rule. Seems like they should have a 10% chance to crit any non headshot attacks in game if you ask me. I think one of the biggest problems orks suffer from is they are always the target of power level measuring. So because so many authors, stories, and rules change from instance to instance it becomes difficult to get a good understanding of just how tough an ork is. In one instance a basic laspistol may blow an orks head out whereas in another instance an ork may be able to face charge a stormbolter a survive to attack based on what the story needs. Imo just use the rule of orkiness: the more they fight the more powerful they get. Like in a final fantasy game. Does it make sense that a women in a flowing dress can take a dragon's mega laser breath attack and only lose maybe 15% of her total "health" pool? Well because she killed over one million flans of course it does! Because she is stronger and reasons! Real balance needs to happen more with eldar being proper eldar imo. They are designed to play like squishy SM and that just sucks when you try to play as an eldar. I know hardly any eldar lore but even I know they arent portrayed very well compared to their actual 40k portrayal. Also orks arent slow. They are very fast they are just very savage as well. They swing hard and fast but with no restraint. Meaning they can swing super wide on an attack or be blocked pretty easy because they dont tend to fight with skill. Orks win melee by either using more power/savagry than an opponent can handle or by hitting them with something/from somewhere the target was not expecting.
Pff, Orks win melee by tarpitting units that actually do things in the shooting phase, and then hope they have enough Boyz survive the charge to just deathstar their target with hundreds of crappy dice rolls. Eldar Shuriken Catapults have a poor man's Rending rule in 6E but I'm not sure what the 7E version is. I need to find a different book than this crappy iBook rip. That would still not translate very well into game terms, as a random single shot being pen 140 is not acceptable gameplay, nor is it engaging.
Well if we really want to get into this.... Orkboyz are 4T/1W/5+, with S4/AP6 shooter or an equivalent slugga/choppa combo for 6pt LSM are 4T/1w/3+ with S4/AP5 bolter for 14pt CSM are 4T/1W/3+ with S4/AP5 bolter and a CCW for 15pt Dire Avenger is 3T/1W/4+ with S4/AP5 Bladestorm ASC (autowound on 6) for 13pt Obviously there's more going on behind the scenes, most of them have WS/BS of 4, but Orkz have a BS2, and the bevy of special rules that accompany everyone. I think the big point I want to drive is that if we want to go off the TT, we're looking at a 2:1 ratio of orks to other factions. @Iratus I think your toughness/armour basis comparison looks good, there's definitely a strong equivalency and it's where I put the numbers as well, I'm waiting on terminators to see exactly where EC pushes toughness. We're not going to see straight comparisons simply for the different relations between armour, toughness, and penetration from TT. I kid you not, I've seen numbers that almost parallel yours before on other threads. Pushing Eldar to rely on armour regen, making orks entirely bullet sponges, and having a heavier tank aspect to marines. It has a lot of merit, it makes sense, and there is a sense of balance to it. In the end it comes down what the devs can manage, and I think it's fair to say that they have their hands full balancing the small nuances there are now. Eldar are a little more reliant on their speed for avoiding shots, orks are a bit spongier, and marines are kind of tougher. Those differences also play into the wargear, orks have good access to big health items, and SM stack armour comparably well. It's a small recognition of the bigger picture you want. Honestly it's like a lot of the game, we could push the envelope and make it work, but the capacity isn't there right now. And that's not me coming down on the dev team, they do work hard and they strongly consider the decisions they make. I would have made a lot of the same decisions as they did, and that includes the mistakes. But threads like this, as long as we recognize that it's not feasible right now, are fun to have. So let's have fun with what we can do. Will post more tomorrow, sleep now.
