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Forgrims Heavy Bolter Feedback

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Forj, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. Rathael Rathael Arkhona Vanguard

    Incase anyone didn't mention it before, the feeling of dying faster than you are dishing is because of inherent latency in the game. The hits you are taking are not being properly communicated to you fast enough.

    You can notice it pretty clearly if you watch the reactions of someone you're shooting at. They don't do anything for the first few hits then start moving. They aren't seeing they are being shot at until they've already been chunked a few times... but you as the shooter still see and register the shooting time. It feels longer because you are literally percieving a longer time between starting shooting and death of target when you are the shooter.

    I love the HB at the moment. I've tried it some more and have been getting a lot of success when conditions are correct. I've had KD ratios above 5:1 with the HB in a couple of games. I can usually at least break even on a losing match. It's powerful, accurate even at range and the suppression effect largely (but not completely) protects you. A lot of people still think it needs a buff and so I believe it's quite fine where it is now.

    I love the HB because in order to get great success with it, you need your flanks covered and ideally one sorcerer nearby to keep you topped up if the enemy gets any lucky hits in through the suppression. That's how I want the game to be. Teamwork dependent.

    I tend to find things go badly when nearby team mates don't understand how to behave around the HB. They:
    • Walk in front of you so you either don't shoot or just physically can't hit the enemy (because there's a friendly body in the way). This allows the enemy to slip past your suppression and killing power and possibly flank you.
    • All try to cover the same angle as you, meaning nobody is watching the flanks. It's pointless and wastes manpower. The Heavy bolter and no more than one guy to cover you while you reload are more than enough to cover one angle of approach. Others should look to cover back entrances.
    I'm really glad to talk about these points because it means the game rewards awareness and smart play so far. I really love a team mate who's clearly thinking in his head "I don't need to watch that front door. There's this HB guy doing it here. I'll go make sure the back door is clear". I want to depend on team mates as a devastator no matter what. They are specialist and should remain so... and correct support of the devastator should be rewarded.

    There should definitely always be a huge canyon between the results of two co-operative and smart players working together, and the results of two players who's decisions don't combine so well even if it means the majority of the time you run into the latter.
    ByeBye, Sumshine, Forj and 1 other person like this.
  2. This thread has inspired to practice using the HB more. I've had a number of matches with a K/D of 2+, which is the highest I've seen outside of using soon-to-be-nerfed Stormbolter. Things that have worked:

    1) The braced HB is an amazing sniper weapon. Instead of supporting my squad from behind, I try to find a neglected part of the map off to the side. I will often get 4+ kills before anyone realizes I'm neutralizing the enemy's ability to push or reinforce the point. 20-30 seconds after the first kill is usually a good time to find new cover, though I'll often stick around just to see who notices me (a sniper? a jet pack? a tank? it varies). You can even go toe-to-toe with the Stalker Bolter, since the amazing bullet spread of the HB can make up for the lack of zoom.

    2) The unbraced HB can be used like a Storm Bolter. Using zoom (and only with zoom), I can fire rounds preemptively to reduce spin-up time and I'll even win shooting matches against SBs. If an SB user (or any Tac Marine, really) catches me off guard, I'm usually dead. You cannot engage at long range in this mode, so it's mostly for defending points with no good brace options while inside a building.

    3) Watching my back. Even when surrounded by fellow marines, situational awareness is clutch when anything that can surprise you can usually kill you.

    4) Harassing the crap out of Vehicles. I never even realized HBs could shred Vehicle armor before recently, and I've made up for lost time by flanking them and chewing through their HP while getting free kills on any marines who try to pop out of it. This turns normally amazing pushes into death traps.

    5) NOT being where the action is. Sticking with my team mates is good when we're trying to ninja a point before the enemy is organized, but otherwise I want to be off in the distance, mowing down marines before they know what's killing them. This makes me vulnerable to Assaults (very, very vulnerable), but if I can move from cover to cover quick enough, I'm practically invincible. Jetpack players have the attention span of gnats, which means unless they know exactly where you are, they will ignore you.
    Lichtbringer likes this.
  3. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Thanks for stopping by Wodenborn. It seems you're finding the HB effective in the same kind of situations as I am, though I do think it interesting that you're more effective than I am. There are some play style adjustments for me to test out based on your comments and those of others, but could you give me an idea of what kind of latency you usually experience?

    There is one exception though, this I cannot do:
    I've tried pretty much this on people I've come up on unawares, but they're moving out of the way before I can down them, and once they're moving I'm dead. How are you going about pulling this off?
  4. PhilosAzel Philos Ordinate

    HB in CqC is insane. Its murders all and is arguably OP in CqC if you know the trick to remove the wind up time :)
  5. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    This has not been my experience so far, but I have some learnings to apply before passing judgement. I'm thinking my next set of testing will focus on CQB. I think the support/suppression has been covered enough here, for now.
  6. PhilosAzel Philos Ordinate

    Here is a easy trick is in almost any shooter. Pre-spool your heavy weapon in CqC.

    If you click the mouse once, you will hear him rack a shell. Then about .5 second after you can shoot.

    If you see someone on your map or know they are around a corner. Click your mouse to rack a shell ( they will bum rush you, as most player think a dev sucks in CqC) make enough distance for the .5 second to start shooting. It is roughly 6-7 meters. You can also bounce a nade off behind them forcing them to push to you.

    Most melee use all their stam up and can get staggered easy. Once they are staggered (space bar+ back) then light them up.
    Epathus and Forj like this.
  7. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Random thought: It would be nice to be able to glance left and right without unbracing, more than just the amount you can turn your gun. A self centering look somewhat like the "lean around corners" thing that shows up in some FPS games. Just to do a quick check without taking your aim off what you're covering.
    Trollet likes this.
  8. Drew DrewM Preacher

    Does anyone else get in awkward situations where two devastators/havocs with heavy bolters start suppressing each other and accomplishing nothing? Even if you start firing earlier, just the act of the other heavy bolter firing in your general direction suppresses you (even if they're already suppressed, making none of those shots hit because of the screen-wide reticle).
    I feel like a heavy bolter shouldn't suppress other if he's already being suppressed, and he especially shouldn't be able to suppress the one shooting at him (because he's not actually hitting anything or causing any threat 99% of the time).
    Lichtbringer likes this.
  9. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Got into that situation myself tonight, actually, and it was rather awkward. He was backing up into cover, but I was moving to counter, so I'm not sure who would win. I had buddies though. Two-way suppression seems ok to me - and it's simple.
  10. Epathus Epathus Subordinate

    I put the Heavy Bolter to little more intense test last night. Instead of the class switching I do most of my game sessions, I sticked to the heavy bolter for roughly 2 hours of gameplay as a loyal ultramarine.

    I can backup much of the feedback already given in this thread. The heavy bolter is extremely dependent on good bracing points, although aiming with ALT while standing free or walking helps a lot.

    In the optimal combat situation, with a good field of fire from a bracing point and supporting a team attack I felt that the weapon is killy enough as it is. I joined one match for the last 5-8 minutes and could give good fire support as we capped and defended points C and D.

    At C, shooting from the window of the A building you can cover the area around the capture point, effectively preventing recaps. What really put up my kills was the attack on D though, bracing at the barricade on the ridge above the little Building with the capture point. I really felt like I was covering up my team, as I got a streak of suppression assists and kills and kept the open ground to the right of the building free from traitors. Although joining late in the game I got a KDR of 12/6, so definitely the HB is good for more the suppression.

    It does take a lot of time however to unbrace a get into cover. You actually have to do that before someone starts shooting back at you, else you probably wont make it in time. I think the delay in notifieing hits to the player mentioned above in this thread is mainly responsible for this. Still, I experienced a somewhat annoying delay between unbracing and getting down for cover, like the character would not respond to the keypress of C immediatlely after unbracing, making the game feel unresponsive and causing an unnecessary death as I waited for my marine diving for cover.

    I think the ability to look around a little more while braced, without altering the field of fire, would really help HB players to keep up situational awareness, so I think it's a good idea.

    Erm, sorry that the "short feedback" I initially wanted to post ended up the wall of text it is now... ;-)

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