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Forgrims Heavy Bolter Feedback

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Forj, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. Galen Galen Arkhona Vanguard

    I think you misunderstood me !I should have made this more clear its the whole blur on the screen that i dislike i think that the accuracy debuff would be enough of a penalty!
    ByeBye and Forj like this.
  2. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Ah, I see, fair enough! That does corroborate my feeling that, where people are quick to complain about something being OP, most complaints by people on the receiving end of suppression are about how annoying the visual effect is. However, I think it's also supposed to be a visual cue that you're being suppressed, the accuracy debuff may not be so immediately obvious with everything else going on around you. Personally, the few times I've been suppressed hasn't seemed that annoying to me.
  3. Galen Galen Arkhona Vanguard

    If it is supposed to be that it needs to be toned down in my opinion!
  4. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    I don't know if it's supposed to be or not, I just have a feeling we'd miss having the cue if it went away entirely. We'd be all "WHY CAN'T I HIT THE...oh, right, I'm being suppressed"
  5. Galen Galen Arkhona Vanguard

    I said toned down not thrown out the nearest window!
    Forj likes this.
  6. Zaeryn Zaeryn Master

    Again I am flat out right because I am stating fact. Players do take cover in video games. "Fear of death" does exist in video games. A-D-A-D spam is restricted in EC by the cover system, which forces your character to stand-up/lean out of cover before firing their weapon, which in turn exposes them to return fire. Players require more than just a shot or two to die, which in turn limits the effectiveness of pop-up latency.

    Without artificial suppression the weapon can have its appropriate killing power without being OP. Right now artificial suppression may be fun and useful but it can always feel less so when something better comes along.

    The degree of blur is too excessive but its a better mechanic than magically decreasing your weapon's accuracy. That is the part of artificial suppression that needs to go. Slight blurring(simulating your helm's auto-senses being overwhelmed) and flinch(simulating the force of the hits) impact the player's accuracy, which in turn gives them the opportunity to counter their opponent via skill.
    The stats/mechanics of the HB and its wielding class should provide it with more than a 50% chance of victory against Bolter users at medium/long range.
    I.E. Bolter TTK vs Tactical: 1.75-sec, 8 shots, 0.25-sec Firing Rate
    Heavy Bolter TTK vs Tac: 1.2-sec, 7 shots, 0.2-sec FR
  7. Bentusi16 Bentusi16 Prefectus

    Except A-D-A-D spam works because of latency issues and has nothing to do with what you just said, pretty much par the course for your suggestions.
  8. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Patch #12

    So, another patch with minimal changes to the Heavy Bolter, but where changes elsewhere have had a significant impact. First up, let’s look at the Heavy Bolter changes from the patch notes:

    - Heavy Bolter bracing SFX have been updated!
    - The Heavy Bolter on the Chaos side now correctly performs a ready animation before firing.

    Not mentioned in the notes:
    -Heavy Bolter braced camera now has a wider angle

    I haven’t noticed the new SFX myself, but I’m not an aural person at all. I’ll just assume it’s better and move on. The fix to the Havoc ready animation we knew was coming and is simply a fix. I’m glad the weapons are symmetrical again, but I don’t think there are enough Heavy Bolters in the field for this to have a major impact.

    Now, the wider angle is more interesting. Having the transparent character in the way is a little annoying until you learn to tune it out, but seeing more of the battlefield is a much needed improvement. However, I feel like I’ve lost a small amount of zoom, and an increase in barrel climb seems to have crept in. It makes me wonder if the camera has moved back a little as well as increased the Field of View. I want to keep the increased FOV, but would like my reduced barrel climb back. It’s making it noticeably harder to keep shots on target, stationary or moving. Moving is worse, of course.

    The rest of the game has had some major changes, and players have learned and gotten better, and this has had a major impact on the heavy bolter. The changes that have most affected the Heavy Bolter for me are the reduction in Defensive Bash stun, the increase in match population, and the rise of plasma weapons. The addition of the meltagun hasn’t significantly changed the experience, since getting that close to anyone was already highly dangerous.

    This next part is going to be more negative than I usually try for, since it goes to the heart of what I consider makes a good game: player agency.

    Defensive Bash

    Now, I will admit that I’m not very good at melee. Having focused my testing experience on the Heavy Bolter, I don’t get a lot of opportunity to practice it, and EC melee isn’t my style. Also, the change to the D-Bash was sorely needed to remove/reduce the stunlocking that even Devastators were capable of. Although I do wonder how often someone was stunlocked by a Devastator compared to how often they just ran up and shanked the Devastator, the mechanics were flawed and needed to be fixed. For me, however, this has removed the one reliable option I had for trying to gain some control over the situation if I find myself in melee. I’ve managed a handful of actual melee encounters this patch, and lost every one of them. Previously I won often enough that I felt like I had a chance if I was careful and lucky. This is a situation where I feel that my agency has been reduced: Once engaged in melee, the outcome is a given in almost all cases.

    Increased Player Count

    You’d think this would produce a target rich environment and boost my kill count, but the opposite has actually occurred. If the added people were all downrange and grouped up, sure, but players quite sensibly don’t do that. With more players, I’m more likely to get flanked, and said flanking isn’t tactical or deliberate, it’s just happening. With the close quarters of the current maps, there is just more people inside these room, meaning more people shooting at me from more directions. This is also a problem at longer ranges, where the targets for suppression are further spread out. Given the time it takes to land a kill, focusing on a target for the kill exposes the heavy bolter to unsuppressed return fire from other angles. Trying to keep all targets suppressed can be pretty frantic, and the more of them there are, the more shots land even through the suppression. More players on both sides also increases the chance of friendly fire, this reducing the options I have for shooting. My agency feels reduced in these situations because shooting from a braced position often becomes a simple matter of attrition unless there is only one or two targets, and I often can’t fire on targets properly because of the proximity of friendlies.

    As for melee, more players means it’s more likely that someone will come around the corner, or behind me, or anything that isn’t in front of me. With melee TTK as it is, one swing that I don’t see coming is enough to either down me, or stagger me enough that I can’t respond in time for the second swing to down me, so a lot of my experience of melee is very brief. I see this happen a lot to other players too, when we’re all crammed into these small spaces. Blackbolt is particularly bad for this. The fact that I don’t get to respond to melee very often makes me feel that my agency has been reduced or removed.

    The rise of Plasma

    I’m glad these weapons have gotten some love, and they are now the battlefield threat that they represent on the tabletop. However, the way they interact with Suppression gives me minimal defense against them. Charged shots don’t seem to be affected at all, and they’re one-shot kills most of the time. Even out little hop will rarely be enough. Additionally, the autofire of the Plasma Gun feels more accurate under suppression than other weapons, and the higher damage means less of them need to land.


    All of this has combined to put my play experience back where it was when I was starting out: victory goes to whoever attacks first. I’m also going to have to go back to playing more timidly, and checking all corners for targets, instead of rushing around like everyone else seems to be able to do. The experience has also become unfun enough for me the change weapons, so far in a limited fashion: I will no longer be bringing the Heavy Bolter to Blackbolt. I just don’t think it belongs on that map. The opportunities for its niche are too few, and it's remarkably unsuited to most of the playstyle that goes on.
  9. Iron Dragon ByeBye Well-Known Member

    I have to agree for the most part. When it comes to long range engagements the increased barrel climb has made things tougher. I have also found that I need to stop running well before I get to an engagement so that I can use aim and/or crouch.

    As for melee. Well I guess/think I have probably used it more then you have, due to the fact that my play style is closer to the front lines. I do find that the removal of the stun, and the fact that we have no way to lock on, has started to cost me many melee engagements. With the stun lock I could almost consistently win 1v1 with my HB, but it did feel dirty, provided they didn't ground slam me and no one decided to fire into the fray. Now I find it hard to keep the melee rhythm up. I do still win, when I can get D-bash to function properly, from time to time, but it is a lot less frequent now. I would suggest following up your D-bash with a heavy attack. You have just enough time to pull it off afterwards and it will stagger the enemy quite well and either allow you to finish them in melee, or start shooting. Though finishing them in melee by switching between the three types of attacks seems to work best.

    As for Blackbolt the HB does have places to shine. So I wouldn't give up on it just yet. If you start on the attackers side and have no points captured. It will be a long fight and you will feel useless. If you are a defender sticking to the high ground calling out tanks and destroying them is always an option (as long as your team can keep the high ground). But for sheer boredom in the match, but the most useful I have been. Park yourself just outside of B in the alcove closest to the stairs, facing the entrance from the outer room/center road. Stay crouched and aiming into that area, with occasional movements to look into B, and to keep yourself from being booted. Most of the time players just sprint into that area without checking for enemies. As soon as they appear in the doorway open fire on them. I have never had anyone make it to me to engage in melee. Like I said though it is boring as all get out. Enemies are few and far between, and if you forget to check your right side someone will sneak up on you and shank you good and proper. It's great because you know with every kill you are keeping the enemy from taking the point, and if they do take you down you are an early warning system to your team that they are about to loose B. If you can sucker someone into staying on guard with you (I know you have that nice guild to give you a hand) it will make it easier and no one should be able to take B from you without sending an entire squad to deal with you.

    Just my 2 cents though.
    Unfairly_Lucky likes this.
  10. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Hrm, I'll have to try the heavy attack after d-bash approach, on the rare occasion I get to respond before death. Sounds effective. Most of the time I'm just scrambling to stay alive. Obviously, I need to Git Gud.

    I know just the spot, and have made use of it solo and with a squadmate. It's a good position just because of the angles, and the distance to where the enemies come at you from. That is, it takes more than 2 seconds to cross the distance to you. Interestingly, given that the devs have stated that the maps are being built around the Heavy Bolter (HB recoil change), it's not a designed in Heavy Bolter position. But anyways, my point wasn't that it can't shine on Blackbolt; It's that the places and situations combine so infrequently. Your description actually highlights that: there's this one place, if you're defending that point, where you can sit and wait for them to come to you, but it's really boring.

    Actually, that kind of sums up the Heavy Bolter right now: In situations where several factors come together for you, it shines. But there are a lot of "ifs" and qualifiers. Outside of those circumstances, it's very weak. And so in between my 2-4 "killing sprees", I spend several deaths and run-backs trying to make that situation happen for me, but some of those factors are totally out of my hands.
    Unfairly_Lucky, Warriant and ByeBye like this.

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