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Forgrims Heavy Bolter Feedback

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Forj, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    You're absolutely right. That's one of my biases showing through. I do, however, like that I can feel the weight of the Space Marine. They might be fast, but they're heavy. That's the part that feels right. I do wonder how fast Eldar should be in this scheme.
  2. Zaeryn Zaeryn Master

    That is exactly what I am saying. You, as the Marine, should not feel your own weight. You should feel like you are moving around wearing nothing but your birthday suit, or perhaps a thin body glove. It should be anything you hit that feels your weight.

    With the current scheme Eldar should be about as fast as a normal Human, because the SMs currently perform many actions at a lower or equivalent degree as a Human(I.E. I, as an out-of-shape Human, using telegraphed attacks like the Marines in EC do, can perform 3 attacks in the time it takes a Marine to perform 2).

    As a Human, I can compare myself to an IG(also a Human) and see that they have an Initiative(overall measure of a model's speed/reflexes) of 3, I can then infer that I3 = 3 attacks/sec. Therefore, an Marine at I4 should be able to perform 4 attacks/sec., so the Combat Knife, Chainsword, Power Sword and Force Sword should all have Basic Attack speeds of 0.25-seconds, while heavier/unwieldy weapons like the Power Axe/Fist and Thunder Hammer, which drop the User's Initiative to 1(for balance sake, only half of attack speed is taken when reducing Initiative) would have the current 0.5-second Basic Attack speed. Charge Attacks should only take twice as long, while the Defensive Bash takes 2.25x as long, while not causing attacks to unrealistically recoil off of you. That way, if a Combat Knife or one of the Swords was faced with a Power Axe/Fist or Thunder Hammer they could perform a D.Bash nearly as quick as the heavier weapon could Basic Attack, giving the less powerful weapons a chance to defend themselves.

    Their top sprinting speed is 10.25-meters/sec, when Usain Bolt, the fastest Human, granted, but still a non-genetically engineered Super-Human with strength and speed enhancing Power Armour, can sprint at 12.27-meters/sec. At the very least, a Marine should realistically be able to sprint at 12-meters/sec.
  3. I think you mean 'power' rather than weight..
    If you feel weight as a marine, there is something wrong with your genetics..
  4. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    I'm obviously not communicating what I'm feeling well. "Power" is a good way of putting it. Suffice to say that I feel like would expect to, when moving around. I think that part they've got right. Are you disagreeing with that assessment, or with how I'm expressing it?
  5. Zaeryn Zaeryn Master

    I disagree with the assessment.

    I guess the best way to explain my view is you should essentially feel like a Human in water but still be able to move as if surrounded only by air. You would be aware of your own weight but require less effort to move it, because not only does the Power Armour not encumber you, meaning that you personally feel none of its weight in the slightest way, shape or form, it also enhances your strength, speed and the ease with which you perform your actions, the ease meaning that even if performing a proportionately similar task you would be able to perform that action for a longer period of time before exhausting yourself with your Armour than without(I.E. say Armour enhances Marine Strength by 10x, Marine can lift 1,000-lbs on his own 25 times yet in his Power Armour can lift 10,000-lbs 30 times or more).
  6. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Another Wall O Text. Sorry. Skip to the bolded TL;DR and Summary if you prefer.

    Zaeryn, if you don't mind, I'm going to agree to disagree for now, and continue with my Heavy Bolter specific feedback. I'd be happy to discuss the matter with you in another thread.

    Braced Suppressive Fire Testing

    Firstly, thank you all for your input. I feel there is some common experiences emerging, but the voices of disagreement are valuable counterweights.

    I’ve spent my last two sessions focusing on trying to find good bracing spots, and laying down suppressive fire. Having adjusted my expectations, I enjoyed myself a lot more without getting so frustrated. It felt great laying down suppressive fire, pinning people down behind cover. Supporting your team is where the Heavy Bolter really comes into it’s own, but this does put a lot of your “fun” in the hands of a bunch of randoms. Covering a stalemated attack racks up the kills, but if no-one is actually attacking the point, what am I really achieving? It was an odd combination of selfish play and teamwork. I was supporting the team, but I wasn’t helping them win.

    My K/D ratio has improved to approximately 1:1, which is nice. I feel this places me as a mid-level player - I’m not sure on this one, am I right?

    A lot of what I'm saying in this thread seems like complaining, I know. But for me, my first question here is "Is this how you intended this to work?". If so, then keep up the good work! If not, then hopefully my feedback can be helpful

    TL;DR: In a straight shootout, outshot by Lascannons, Bolters, Stormbolters, and Assaults. Supporting the team with suppressive fire is awesome, but is a sometimes thing depending on position and how fast the battle shifts. I take too long to kill things, skill issue? Too much flinching when braced in cover.

    Things that outshoot me


    Lascannons - as expected, one-shot kills. I am jealous of their ability to keep me in their sights while I’m shooting them though, it seems like they suffer less from flinching than I do.

    Bolters - It feels like they are more accurate at range than I am, so land more hits, even when I’m braced behind cover. In a couple of cases they weren’t behind cover at all, just stood there firing back. The times they snuck shots around the corner of cover, they earned. No complaints there.

    Storm Bolters - even when I get the jump on them, and brace first. They dance out of the way and murder my face. Not exactly unexpected though, I don’t expect to beat one in CQB. Would be nice if I could kill one from behind though.

    Assaults - yes, not exactly outshoot, but yeah. Charging straight at a braced and firing Heavy Bolter shouldn’t be your first option. Again with the flinching. More than one case of case of opening fire direct to the chest of an assault, I get off two-three shots, he then kills me in two-three swipes. I do expect to get chopped up by these guys in other situations though. I’m kind of on the fence on this one, since if I was playing an Assault I’d totally want to knock the barrel away while it’s firing and drive my sword into his skull.

    Supporting the Team


    This part is great, and why I want to play a Heavy Bolter Devastator. However, I sometimes feel like I’m not contributing, since I’m sitting in one place waiting for the enemy to come within range/sight, while my teammates could be having a clash somewhere else. Repositioning is risky, and will leave that spot uncovered. I don’t just sit around though, if there are no targets in a short wait, or the team has actually moved on, I change position. This is usually where I get killed. Also, I’m getting plenty of assists, suppressive and otherwise, but these give less points than kills and aren’t tracked. The extreme, unrealistic case could see someone who provides good covering fire for a whole winning match, get no kill credits at all, and thus also a lower score.

    Positioning

    Laying down Braced suppressive fire is only as good as your positioning. As it should be, but this can be limiting, and in a fluid situation, good positions aren’t available in all engagements. Not actually a problem there, but something to keep in mind regarding how much fun is in the control of the player. Some approaches have little worthwhile cover and no decent bracing points. Many good positions are excellent for preventing anyone getting out of the building, but you can’t give any support to your team once inside. I don’t think that opening up the inside of buildings to outside fire is a solution though. Going inside brings you into CQB, where you’re vulnerable, and standing in the doorway just a bad idea. There is also the risk that the good positions will get known, and only those positions will get used, so everyone knows where to find the Heavy Bolter. Repositioning is also a moment of weakness, as it should be. Crossing open ground is a risky business. Covering your teammates as they move to the next objective is great, but once they get there, you need to catch up as well as reposition. Organised teamplay will be able to get around this with leapfrogging or something like that, but random matches won’t have that luxury.

    Time to Kill

    Plenty of assists, kills in the open, but if they could dance up the stairs or something, no kill. One case I was shooting a downed, someone tried to revive him, kept firing and killed the reviver, but then overheated, and the first one was revived, who then revived the second guy, and they both went out sight.

    This is where I really do question my skill. I can be braced in cover, and unload into someone for a good 3 seconds or more, sometimes at risk of overheating, before they go down. I’m often aiming centre mass, due to either range making the target small enough already, the target being on the move, or I’m not willing to risk the barrel climb. Headshots are a lucky break, do you think I should be actually trying for them? I know that’s the paradigm in most shooters, but it doesn’t seem right with this weapon. I’m willing to adjust my prejudices here though.

    Braced in cover

    I don’t feel very protected in this situation. Better protected than open ground, to be sure, and I wouldn’t expect it to be the same as fully in cover, but it only takes one Tactical to make me break off from the cover. Interestingly enough, it appears that the cover does provide protection from grenades, which is nice. Personally, I’d like to see a reduction in flinching and perhaps reticle bloom due to getting hit, while braced against cover. It was not uncommon to find myself flinching too much to be accurate enough to suppress the guy shooting me. Once my aim is off, it’s very hard to recover from both flinch and bloom enough to stop the incoming fire enough to recover enough. As I mentioned before, Bolters out of cover at long range beat my Heavy Bolter braced in cover. There were two of them (though one had a Stormbolter), so getting killed isn’t unreasonable, but I couldn’t manage to kill the one I was focusing on. Another skill issue perhaps? I thought I was doing a decent job at keeping on target, and burst firing, but maybe I’m wrong.

    Summary

    Overall, the direction feels good, but the details of things such as flinching and accuracy need work. Finding a way to properly credit the suppressive effect of a Heavy Bolter and have the experience be rewarding i.e fun, is important.
  7. CptBrit CptBrit Menial

    I agree that the HB Dev is pretty crappy in Assault (and thus never use it as Loyalists) at the moment, I find it really useful in defense though, unless the enemy is on the ball with their grenades and flanking.

    As Chaos you can get some serious kills defending point A, B or D (C i've found is too open to be used effectively).

    As for aiming, trying aiming for upper chest, more chance of the odd bullet hitting the head. You should in the time it takes to overheat be able to knock down two enemies, don't worry about finishing them off straight away, a reviver should take priority anyway.

    A lot of its power is in the suppression, you are playing a "support" class a decent portion of your points should be suppression assists if you can't get the last hits.

    If you mainly play Loyalists then I wouldn't be able to offer much advice as I 9/10 play Tactical with my trusty Plasma Gun... But the HB is perfectly capable of doing the damage at the moment.

    In a nutshell in defense = great, In assault = bad-average at best imo, keep at it though i'll laud anyone willing to master a weapon that isn't the blood Stormbolter/Combibolter lol
  8. Zaeryn Zaeryn Master

    Braced Suppressive Fire Testing
    The Heavy Bolter was given its artificial suppression effect to force it into the role of suppression weapon, forcing artificial suppression on players. To keep it from being OP due to the artificial suppression, its accuracy and recoil were significantly raised above that of the Bolter when they should only be slightly worse. A proper design would be a weapon that can reliably out-shoot Bolters/Storm Bolters at medium and long range, having the downside of being a somewhat poor close-quarters weapon. That way, you would either be able to suppress players or would more reliably kill those players that do not take cover, allowing you to provide greater benefit to your team.

    Things that outshoot me
    A Lascannon's ability to 1HK should be situation/circumstantial, not a 100% guarantee. When Marines have repeatedly continued fighting even after losing entire limbs, being instantly killed and vaporized by a weapon that shoots you in the toe is incredibly unrealistic and forces the weapon to have non-canon adjustments made to it, such as changing it from an instant fire weapon that requires either a new power pack be loaded or time for the Marine's Pack it is connect to to recharge the weapon's capacitor as the barrel cools that it should be into a weapon that requires time to lock-on to a target before auto-firing.

    Non-Heavy/Stalker Bolters should only be able to reliably go against you in close-quarters, where your own Bolt Pistol should be more effective than your Heavy Bolter, encouraging you to switch to it for CQC instead of continuing to use your Heavy Bolter.

    Depending on how far away the Assault is charging from, they should be able to feasibly win because the Heavy Bolter is supposed to be a poor close-combat weapon, making up for its overall superior power over other Bolt weapons at medium and long range(except for the Stalker).

    Supporting the team
    If advancing through uncertain territory(I.E. no allies nearby), while slower it is more wise to walk with the Heavy Bolter aimed. That way, the moment an enemy enters view you will be ready to fire. When preparing to actually cross open ground, after having checked as best you could to see if it's clear, it is best to simply sprint the distance until you get into cover, rather than breaking your stride and leaving yourself out in the open as you try to return fire at whomever started shooting at you, if anyone did. Removing the reticle bloom from the HB but leaving the screen blur/flinch and improving its accuracy(not braced accuracy, which could use a decrease) and reducing recoil should leave it an effective suppression weapon that is more reliably able to get kills, allowing users to still gain kill XP in addition to whatever suppression XP they gain(if the detection for suppression is improved, which I'm sure it will be).

    Positioning
    After suppressing your enemy inside so your allies can close the gap and start the assault, you should use the break in the outside fire caused by your allies' assault to close the distance and get inside as well, taking up a defensive position to help fend off the enemy as the point flips. Generally, you should stay in one particular spot no more than 30-seconds or so.

    Time To Kill
    The TTK should be long enough for players being fired upon by a HB that are not directly out in the open(which you yourself claims allows for reliable kills and is how things should be) to get into cover; otherwise, more people will play the HB-Dev knowing they can usually kill an enemy before they have a chance to get into cover/break line of sight. As for the over-heating problem, that's more because weapon damages are too low and firing rates too high in order to compensate, with other compensations being made for the lack of damage such as the Bolter's non-canon 42 Bolt magazine.

    Head-shots should rely on skill but in EC even when just full auto spraying at the collarbone area of a target with the Storm Bolter I end up with head-shot Downs about 1/3 of the time, so, honestly, there's no reason not to aim at the upper chest of an enemy in EC I know of that outweighs the reward for doing so(frequent head-shots).

    Braced in Cover
    While vulnerable to head-shots when braced, your recoil and flinch should be minimal. The accuracy problem with Bolters and the apparently very minimal fall-off damage for weapons over range is most likely the case of the Bolter, especially the Storm, out-shooting a Heavy Bolter at long-range, which a Heavy Bolter should mostly reign supreme in. Even if fighting against two Bolters at long range, provided they are not significantly spread apart, you should be able to more reliably kill and/or suppress them than they you, which should allow an ally of your's to come and assist you in taking out the enemies 2v2.

    Summary
    Overall, I can agree with you; however, with improved accuracy and decreased recoil, which would improve the weapon's natural suppression capabilities, its artificial ones would likely need to be reduced to compensate, such as the removal of the reticle bloom in favor of keeping the screen blur and flinch. While you could more reliably Down enemies your position still may prevent you from finishing that enemy, allowing them to crawl to safety and/or be revived, thereby requiring team-work so that after you've shot some enemies Down for the XP your assaulting allies Execute them for XP.
  9. Cabal Trainee CabalTrainee Arkhona Vanguard

    I just wanted to throw in here that the time to kill sometimes seems way longer than the time to die. But only because of lagg. Nearly every time i shoot in the dead guys body i few more rounds without reason.

    I play from Europe so don´t know how bad it is for people close to the Servers.

    GIMME A PING INDICATOR!
    Lichtbringer and Madgenius4 like this.
  10. Grigdusher Grigdusher Arch-Cardinal

    that not your problem: you are doing your part is your team that was too scary of die (even when you cover them and make the enemy more vulnerable).

    the score sistem is not definitive score will change.

    the repositioning it's not your fault, it's a lack of teamplay, tactical are supposed to cover you make you repositioning and wait for your fire support.
    because killing when you are more vulnerable is what an enemy will try to do, you need other team mate that help you overcome the weakness of your class.


    in short you try to use a support weapon in a game where people run around with stormbolter for increase their K/D thinking only for themself.

    when the game will allow to create premade squad all this will change, because devastator it's all about teamplay.
    Sumshine, Galen and Madgenius4 like this.

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