And Medusa A has 7 entrances to the top level alone, 5 of them in melee range of places that a ranged class might hang out. If one or two good points for ranged to hang out is acceptable, then one or two points for melee to be effective is also acceptable. I don't. Locking down an approach is the point of a Heavy class, especially area-denial weapons like the HB. There are plenty of ways to take out/bypass an emplaced Heavy Bolter that has locked down an approach: Suppression, transport, tank, Lascannon, flanking, use another approach. It is my belief and hope that your take on the design intent is correct, but the problem at hand is that many of the brace points don't require that type of flanking, since there are often multiple ways to approach that are easy to get to - such as the doorway out of my LOS that leads directly outside. So I avoid those brace points, run out of places that I can safely brace, and just become a crouching CQC ambush.
To be fair, the role of a HB should be to prevent people from getting inside in the first place. Directly covering a cap point doesn't exactly make sense for a Devastator since their role should be to prevent the approach, not the cap directly. I don't have all maps memorized, and I don't play Devastators very often but I do know that, for many buildings, there are usually much better bracing points that face outward that those that work well facing inward. Triple cap maps also just don't lend themselves well to Devastator play in general because of the brawly nature of the battles with foes coming in from all sides on a point, preventing good options from being available to brace and mow down foes in the core building itself. Often a better option is to setup in a secondary building outside (think Medusa B secondary buildings where the quadguns are). I think if people in general modified their playstyle from "Don't let them cap" to "Don't let them get in the building at all" firing lines would form more naturally and devastators would see a rise in play for a few reasons: 1. External facing walls have more surface area when it comes to cover 2. Killing people on approach is easier and allows gun users to engage at more favorable ranges than "Oh sh** he's got a power sword" 3. There's usually very little cover between major points of contestation. The best example I can think of with this is the natural firing line between A and B on Pegasus Station(Snowy Triple cap). The balcony that overlooks the bridge is perfect for Devastator play, but it overlooks the apporach to building B, not B capture point itself. As it stands, Devastators simply aren't that good at internal building fights, nor should they be. My assessment of the devs not getting it 100% correct was meant to extend to map design in addition to class design, so sorry if that wasn't clear. But I do still approve of the intent for there to not be a 100% safe brace location.
You would think so, and I do try for those opportunities, but it often doesn't quite work out that way. Many brace points that point outwards don't cover main approaches, have limited fields of fire, or have LOS blockers (sometimes right in front of them). Many of the best places to cover an approach has no brace points that are clear of LOS blockers. On top of which, these brace points are almost always outside the +XP tick zone. And then there are the times that I've been on one of those points, and either been shanked from behind (where the point is!) or had it capped without seeing anyone - at which point I have to go back inside to help defend the point anyways. Medusa A is still a good example. There are three places I can think of to brace that cover an external approach, one of which is outside the defense +XP area and is horrendously exposed. The other two put easily reached access points within melee range either side of you, and rely on taking people out at 100m or more. The areas that aren't blocked by buildings or cover is (estimating from memory) less than 50% of the screen space, and one of these approaches I've never seen used. In summary, the options for bracing and shooting outwards are limited and unsafe. Medusa C covers the approach from B quite well, if you go all the way outside. This is a point that can be defended from the outside, and attempt to stop the enemy getting inside. I've not seen that work, but it's way more like how the HB should be used, and frustrations with long range shooting aside, really felt like I was playing WH40K . Its does have the downside that you don't get +XP credit for defense. I'd like to see a "don't let them get in" approach, but so long as there are so many ways to get close to and inside a building, and you get +XP ticks for being close to it, defending the point is the best approach. Also, you're usually far better off defending the point directly because an outer defence can be bypassed and a cap started anyways. Sorry if I'm coming off as a bit cantankerous. I'm not trying to be dismissive, but I've just had a rash of games where I've felt unable to make any kind of headway. I don't think that an emplaced Hb should be impregnable, but if map design makes bracing so limited in options and unsafe, then we need to have unbraced fire buffed. You can't build a weapon/class around bracing to be effective and then restrict said bracing so severely.
It shouldn't be just one person's job to defend a point really and if you are solo defending a point, devastator is your worst choice class wise. If your team is on full defensive mode though, it should be the melee who alternate between watching the point for back capping and watching your(the Devastator's) back. A Devastator should be able to trust that the apoth/GA will intercept melee before you get shanked/back capped, so that he can focus on mowing down foes in his LOS. Its boils down to one person can't hope to accomplish it all, no matter the class, but some classes are better at pivoting based on the situation. Devastators are the worst when it comes to adapting to new situations. In regards to your Medusa examples, it's possible this design was done on purpose, making A the least defensible to allow attackers to gain a new spawn foothold. Especially since A is the only realistic attack option for a team who has lost all vehicles and holds no points. This promotes map flow naturally from A->B->C in regards to ease of attack paths/approaches and minimizes the chance of a defensive stomp. However each one is progressively also a better defensive point as you pointed out. From a game design perspective, literally the worst thing you could do would be to make the most accessible capture point for attackers also the hardest to take, because it would skew defender winrates, sending them through the roof. While each point doesn't not have to be taken sequentially on Medusa, the map does lend itself to that based on pathing and ease of capture.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but not all of it. My beef with the current design is not that there are multiple entrances, that is good, but problem is that there are multiple entrances that allow a melee to attack me with 0 warning. I do enjoy the teamwork required to guard a point, and I love having a pet melee around, but even if I have a HB across the balcony from me, or a pet JPA guarding me, often the adversary is able to rush in and kill me (or my HB bro across the way) before we can react. Granted, I admit I need to watch the mini-map more, we all do, but I don't think the onus is totally on me to watch the fight in front of me, and the mini-map, and do the calculus to know when the red arrow is going after my flank, or just maneuvering around the building. Give us multiple doors, but also some clearer lines of fire. Also, so crates between me and the door would be nice, that way other folks have a chance to intercept the guy flanking me instead of me just getting shanked in my Blood Angel kidneys.
@Fissiccisst You're probably right on the design intent of Medusa A, and I think it's the right choice. It just makes for such a good example of the way map design pushes us HBs away from our strengths and towards unbraced CQC. I mean, the best place for me is crouched beside the point, hiding behind a pillar, and covering a doorway less than 30m away. I don't think it should be one person's job to defend the point either, but I've tried ignoring what going on behind me and focusing outwards, and it's not worked out very often. That's just my personal experience though. What a lovely dream you have there. Another thing I've tried that doesn't often work out. The number of times that I've trusted the 3-4 allies at my back and gotten shanked anyways because they can't stop someone in time means that now, if I hear combat behind me, I unbrace to face the threat.
I wouldn't say it is a matter of trust (I'm telling all your teammates YOU don't trust them...), its just an impossible reaction scenario. There are 10s of ways into the point, counting hopping through windows and such, and at least 5 ways to get to the devastator in less than 3 steps. It's nearly impossible to react in time. Even on the balcony facing from B to A on Pegasus, with a pocket GA, the meta I feel into one game was I would kill until some melee ran past the GA guarding me and downed me in 2 hits, then the GA would kill them in 2 hits, then the medic would stick me, rinse and repeat. I'm not advocating for one approach to a point, but certainly fewer. Even if a devastator can cover 2 doors at the same time, they are quickly overwhelmed by an assault, so they are unable to completely shut it all down. No need to have door separated by 90+ degrees. And maybe some crates that break up the approaches to the devastator as opposed to just blocking our Line of Sight.
I've played WAY to many "tactical shooters" (I'm using this term loosely) that end up with meat grinderesque cap points. I'm VERY relieved that it's not the case in this game. View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxsbTjPe2fs
Yeah, that looks like it sucks. Good thing this isn't CoD or BF, and it won't be simply due to the physics of moving (and I like that way, HMMPH!). I think most of us are just saying that right now the cap point experience favors the melee in general, and it stacked against the HBs. There might be a way get things a little more balanced.
I don't think anyone is asking for this (I'm certainly not) as metro is one of the most horribly designed maps in any game. As an HB user it would be nice to have a few more areas where I can brace without having my back to an entrance that is 2 feet away. Since this is true of most cap points we end up crouched in a corner hoping to go unnoticed. Even if we could climb the same height crates/boxes other classes could would be nice as there are a number of great spots.
