I'm finding it hard to not detect bias in what you're saying (see attached) The Heavy Bolter does some of the greatest damage for a Bolt weapon. It also reaches greater range braced than an unmodified Bolter. From it's furthest drop off range, you do more damage than a Bolter. Headshots multiply that (on Orks you die especially quickly due to the size and placement of the head). Recoil isn't much to worry about as you can fire in short bursts and still hit reasonably. So really at it's least lethal it is a Bolter with greater damage, rate of fire, and much greater distance. When I'm being attacked by a Heavy Bolter (and DYING) on Medusa Relay halfway between point C and B, that's sniping. And that is a common occurrence, not just with Heavy Bolters, but with a majority of similar weapons: Shurikan Cannons, Dakka Deffguns (though the rate of fire on that weapon combined with recoil makes it much harder) and even the Autocannon I've seen being used from across one point to another. The reason the Heavy Bolter is getting all the heat is because it is literally the strongest varient of these weapons. Dakka Deffgun has too much recoil compared to the rate of fire to snipe, and the Shurikan Cannon does half the damage of a Heavy Bolter at optimal range, but even then it fires at a much faster rate and accuracy. This is probably only apparent on long ranged maps, which there are a few but mostly the other maps are well rounded.
Could just be really really bad server/client delay. So the player on the receiving end thinks they just got sniped by a heavy bolter......but reality is they had been shot 30-40 times. It just didn't register on their screen until the last moment.
Agreed on this. Are you suggesting that this should not be the case? Because that I would disagree with. The Heavy Bolter is a heavy weapon, and should have some combination of more damage per shot, higher rate of fire, longer range, or all three. The Plasma Cannon does more damage than the Plasmagun. The Lascannon would do more damage at longer ranges than a lasgun would if we had them. Also agreed on this. Sniping shouldn't be a Heavy Bolter thing. What I'm saying in my post above, is that I went out of my way to try and engage at the longest distances I could without ignoring tactical considerations, and I wasn't able to reliably replicate what people are experiencing on the other end. 16 shots fired is not a sniper weapon ( not sure how many were hits - according to my reticle, they all were). At longer ranges, I would need to put more than 16 shots downrange to drop a moving target. What I'm saying is that my experience firing a Heavy Bolter does not match your experience getting shot by one. Something else is going on. As regards your attachment I somehow missed the stats showing on the weapons. I find that very interesting because before the damage values dropped off the Garrison dummies, the Bolter, Stalker Bolter, and Heavy Bolter all started at the same damage value, and just had different drop-off curves. Nowhere has any mention been made of an increase to Heavy Bolter damage, just spread. Heavy Bolters also had no headshot bonus damage, and still may not - bonus points for registering a headshot doesn't necessarily mean bonus damage has been applied. @MichaelChan, can you clarify whether Heavy Bolters get bonus headshot damage? It's also difficult to compare the two weapons (see attached), since they report damage values at two different ranges. How much damage does a Bolter do at 8m and 60m like the Heavy Bolter is reported at?
But just because your singular experience doesn't match up with the experience of those being fired at doesn't mean something else is obviously the issue. If my whole team has a problem here but you can't seem to replicate the event as perfectly as a single individual, that means that our perception is just wrong right off the bat. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I need more than just that to go off of.
I only have my single experience to match against anything, but @Leaker has the same experience, and I have no reason to believe that we're the only two who have this type of experience as HB users. I haven't taken a poll of Heavy Bolter users to confirm how widespread our experience is. Perhaps I should.
@Poked also keep in mind @Forj is a self admitted "Medium skilled player", and as good a game as I talk, good lord I can't hit for anything (hence the fascination with a belt fed). There might be people out there that can put folks down with 3 shots, 1 kill. At the edges of my kill zone, I find myself sweeping over/around the around the target, especially if they are moving, to get the kill. Now, if they are sitting still, that is another story. It might be a case of getting nailed by a HB, but not seeing the missed shots, or realizing a player was exposed/not moving. During the great PC spamming of April 2016, I defended them by saying most of the time I got killed by them, I deserved it. Out in the open, not moving, standing in doorways, standing in fresh blast craters, ect. On Friday, it was hilarious the vulnerabilities people showed, and I punished them for it. They are learning. Yesterday, I had to work hard for a loss against Chaos (left A point unguarded for 20 F--KING seconds and they capped it and collapsed the team...). There were just 2 guildies, but they all showed a keen awareness for the HB, and I took a lot of melee deaths. The devs once again prove that while the the HB is (or was) the redheaded stepchild of EC, they still love us and should have some data. We've got a lot of good discussion that they can take a look at and see what sort of experiences/concerns we have, and what questions they need to answer with data (for us to misinterpret and argue over).
I bring up argument when I have time to dispute them. Unlike some people, I don't spend 24/7/365 on the forums. Looking at the HB as it stands now it is still wrong because it is being based on metrics from current class/weapon statistics that are also wrong. No, it is not. The data you criticized was very old data regarding the Plasma Gun. When you asked if there was anything more up-to-date I gave you, in the conversation, some information on how it would prefer using my builds. Then, you shut up on the matter, not responding at all after that. It is testing because it shows, through testing, how many shots and how much time it would take for a player to Down another based on various accuracy values. It's painfully clear you're just too unintelligent to be able to understand the concepts I am putting forth or even incredibly basic information put before you. Without math, numbers, you cannot have action in a video game/setting. Without action in a video game, you cannot develop any tactics and come up with the most effective available. As the math, numbers, of that game/setting change so too does the Meta. You still see plenty of use of cover because people fear death. They will constantly lie to you and say they don't but literally the only reason they would take cover is to prolong their character's life; otherwise, if they truly did not fear death they would just turn towards the enemy firing at them and return fire in an attempt to shoot them down first. I recommended striving to make the game as great as it can be instead of sticking to artificial and unnecessary garbage. Well, then you did not concur with something I was not concurring with either because once again, I never once ever said that weapons in EC should cause instant-death or even near instant-death. Natural suppression is actually used in games that have higher, farther-from-instant-death TTKs because players can generally live long enough to move from cover-to-cover without NEEDING their enemies to be suppressed. Therefore, suppression comes naturally as players come under fire and take cover so they don't get shot Down. Games with near-instant-death TTKs make use of artificial suppression because you NEED it in order for you allies to survive long enough just to advance on the enemy position. Have not come off that position. Ideally, a Heavy Bolter should be at long range firing at enemies, stopping firing when going to reposition so that they can Sprint and reach their new location(generally a more forward location as you cut down your enemies) faster, afterwards continuing to fire at enemies from long range(because they respawned and are now further back than they were when you first engaged them). That being said, a Heavy Bolter SHOULD BE ABLE to fire at medium range targets without bracing and at close range targets when on the move. Maybe not as well as it can fire at long range targets when braced but still well enough for it to be a viable battlefield tactic depending on the situation. Never said "change the ENTIRE melee system"; however, it does need changes, specifically in the removal of clang and implementation of Block. Many of the changes made to the game have been band-aids that added something to alter to cover-up the problem instead of solving the problem at its source and the majority of ideas focused around just slight tweaks to what we currently have rather than the statistical adjustments they all need are also band-aids as they still do not fix the core problem the wargear/class/etc. etc. has. I use the term "correct information" as in "what is in game is wrong so any information stemming from what is in game is incorrect information that needs to be replaced with correct information". If you, personally, wish to continue to be wrong and/or do things less than the best they could be that is your prerogative but you should at least let others know that want to be right that the correct information is out there. A Heavy Bolter's greater fuel/longer burn time should already be represented by it having a greater damage range than the Bolter(I.E. Bolter damage drops at 48 and 96-meters, Heavy Bolter drops at 72 and 144-meters). A Heavy Bolter should deal more damage per shot than a Bolter and have a higher rate of fire. In return, the user should not only have some mobility drawbacks from having the weapon equipped but should experience more when firing it, which in turn reduces their close range effectiveness by making them easier to target and making it harder for them to target their enemies, which in turn is why Dev/Havs should have already been given their Bolt Pistols and Combat Knives as they should be the better close range option in most situations. That open are you were covering becomes an unsafe place if the Heavy Bolter deals more damage than the Bolter and has a higher firing rate(and no, before anyone's inherent retardation kicks in I am not saying the Heavy Bolter should insta-kill/near-insta-kill or that it needs to deal 500% more damage and/or fire 1,000x faster). Players with Bolters and similar ranged weaponry know they are at a disadvantage if they try to engage a Heavy Bolter from a certain range one-on-one, which in turn means they have to either move around that area or team up on you in order to suppress you. Artificial suppression is really only helpful in games with incredibly low TTKs as it is used to artificially extend the lives of allies so they can advance on objectives without dying instantly/near instantly. With a properly designed Heavy Bolter players will; give in to natural suppression and move to cover, will try and outshoot the HB and get shot Down or through superior skill manage to outshoot the HB. Reverse spread would be detrimental in games like EC that have longer TTKs than games like BF. Players would be able to move cover-to-cover before the weapon could get a bead on them unless the user preemptively fires up the weapon before each engagement, in which case the 'default' combat state for Heavy Bolters would be partially overheated/partially emptied mag. Greater weapon spread also helps in close-range as the larger reticle is more likely to be over part of the enemy and allow for a shot to hit. The D.Bash stun duration should depend on the weapon being used. Spoiler For example: Combat Knife D.Bash Attack Speed: 0.75-sec Stun Duration: 0.25-sec Chainsword D.Bash AS: 075-sec Stun Duration: 0.3125-sec Power Sword D.Bash AS: 0.75-sec Stun Duration: 0.375-sec If D.Bash is used to break through a player's Block, which should replace the clang mechanic, stun duration is increased. Combat Knife D.Bash Block-Break Stun: 0.5-sec Chainsword D.Bash BB Stun: 0.5625-sec Power Sword D.Bash BB Stun: 0.6-sec Aiming when not on cover should cause the player to brace in place, reducing their turn rate in return for reduced recoil and zoom-in for more accurate shots. The player would be able to turn 360-degrees when braced this way. In comparison, when braced on cover the player's turn rate would not be reduced but they would have a limited firing angle. The time to brace, on or off cover, could be short like the hip-fire ready-up time, taking maybe 0.2 to 0.3-sec to occur. You don't need a 100% guaranteed hit. Attacks like the Charge Attack and D.Bash should temporarily stun your opponent so you can try to land a follow-up attack or have a bit more time to escape from your enemy. Dev's melee attacks should deal the same damage as a Tactical's but they should have reduced attack speed due to maneuvering the weight of their Heavy Weapon. Yes. From ~75-meters the Stalker Bolter should be evening the odds or gaining the advantage against the Heavy Bolter in terms of long range capability. Of course, if the Stalker user does not make use of cover that advantage should be less significant/non-existent. That said, even beyond that range the HB should still be a better long range weapon than the Bolter, with the drawback of being less effective than a Bolter in close range due to the mobility limitations the user faces.
Welcome to the fight Zaeryn. Hopefully you have had a chance to play the new HB, as well as read the plethora of new writings about it. A lot has changed in the past couple days. By removing clang, you are changing the a major component of the melee system, and it would need a complete redo since that is a big portion of the RPS system (what to do when both throw paper?). We've got as close to natural suppression as one can expect now, and you can see the discussion it is generating. So far I think us regular HB players are holding the line pretty good, but there are lot of people out there looking to reduce HB effectiveness. Natural suppression just works until the first nerf. I'll leave the argument about mobility alone. If you think you have been consistent, then so be it. I think I found good examples showing some inconsistency in your advocacy, but I will let others be the judge. I guess you will never understand the concerns I and other have with your use of "correct information" (as well as your tone). Probably a language barrier. But, tell me, if the game is "wrong", why do you think the devs haven't changed it? Most of us just comment on what is in the game based on what we "like" or "don't like". The game is a product a the dev team's creativity and imagination. It's very hard to claim imagination is "wrong".
I'll agree with @Forj and @Leaker. My experiences match theirs as well. I have felt sniped when on the receiving end of the HB, but I really think that that is an issue with shots not registering.
