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Focus Top 5 actionable things you would change about Melee vs Ranged

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Oveur, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. Kesslan Kesslan Arkhona Vanguard

    Clang duration in melee lasts too long for melee vs melee compared to combat resolution in ranged. It needs to be a little faster

    Melee vs Ranged needs some sort of benefit when hitting melee. Right now everything but heavy weapons can easily D-bash, roll back and kill melee with ranged weapon before melee can recover.

    Heavy weapons users need a pistol or a slightly longer dbash time. It's almost impossible to defend yourself in close combat as a heavy weapons user. It should be hard, but not nearly impossible.

    MoK should provide better bonuses for melee combat than it currently does as it has no downed state nor allows for healing outside of damage dealt through ranged/melee attacks. Under the current system the melee healing is negligible. Some sort of small damage or damage resistance boost would likely be appropriate.
    Doomness1000 and Njord-Halfhand like this.
  2. Nhakt Nhakt Recruit

    1. Engaging in melee combat should give you a defensive buff against ranged attacks. When stunned this should go away. This way if you get countered you die, but if you do not you can keep on cleaving people down.

    2. A charging attack (heavy attack) needs to be a thing. If I am running at you wearing 3 tonnes of ceramite and adamantium and I swing a sword, you better believe it's going to be a 'heavy attack'.

    3. Dbash + shoot someone is too easy and effective.

    4. As soon as a ranged class uses ANY melee attack it should force draw their pistol.

    5. Melee ttk should be increased to be on par with ranged ttk.
    Njord-Halfhand, Thraxus and Twirl like this.
  3. Zael Zael Well-Known Member

    Problem: Dbash + taking a step back and shooting is too effective against melee.
    Suggestion: We need a time-delay between using a melee-action and using a shooting-action, EXCEPT for sidearm. No delay for sidearm.

    Problem: We need some way to cross and survive the final meters before getting into melee-range.
    Suggestion: A "jump into melee": If you haven't used a melee-action within the last X seconds, the fast-attack is combined with a jump forward (similar to the strong attack, but with a faster animation). This costs 1 stamina. If you have used a melee-action within the last X seconds, the fast attack is normal, without an extra jump forward. (X=10?)

  4. We had #2 in Alpha. It's called the lunge or sprint attack. Unfortunately:

    -The "range" or distance of ground covered by the lunge was nerfed significantly(distance covered by the lunge reduced by about 75%) prior to launch(Sept 2016).
    -The lunge attack fails to work 90% of the time on live servers when sprinting and tapping RMB(as of Sept 2016). Instead of lunging forwards, covering the last few feet while at the same time delivering a quick attack we stop in place, stand up straight rooted to the ground and wind up a horribly long "hay maker" attack. At that point we're usually shot dead.
    Sumshine and Twirl like this.
  5. Noromiz Noromiz Nickname Change

    It would be rather nice to have a charge/jump on Ground Assaults, Traitor Assaults, Sluggas and Banshees, they could even make it cost a bit of LP for all I care and take up a slot (Trinket slot would be nice).
    Though balancing the distance would be rather hard :/
    Njord-Halfhand likes this.
  6. Simple: WHEN U HAVE MELEE WEP(knife not incluted) U RUN FASTER :DDDD
    Njord-Halfhand likes this.
  7. Mandulis Mandulis Active Member

    1) reduce stall time while clanging in melee
    2) give us the possibility to istant switch a target during a fight without suffer the "stagger" time anymore in order to have a more fluid combat system
    3) change the animations after a clash, make us feel a more immersive fight
    4) give some different activable melee skills for every faction
    5) give stormshield a charging attack
  8. Auzor Auzor Menial

    1) I agree, side-arm for the 'heavies'; lore-wise, they should have it, and right now, the Ork with a rokkit.. does carry a pistol..

    2) Defensive bash stun. Defensive bash stun. Defensive bash stun.
    Rock-paper-scissors may be fine, but I'm not convinced it should include a stun. Of course, removing the stun could be harsh for ranged. I think a 'non-stun' as normal move could work better for melee however.
    USING defensive bash without a dedicated melee weapon (starting from Chainsword and up, i.e. ; non-knife) may use up a half-stamina maybe?

    3) Suggestion: loadout point costs.
    Should a chainsword cost as much as a bolter?
    When we consider the bolter comes with a knife 'for free'. (NB: I play as 'ranged' not melee; Bolter > Chainsword as far as I'm concerned)
    Comparison time:
    Chainsword: 100 'fast' damage, 113 impact.
    Knife: 79 dmg, 110 impact.

    Bolt pistol: 38 dmg @8m, 333 rpm; 19@40m. 4x10 rounds.
    Basic boltgun: 38dmg @30m, 28@100m, 5x30 rounds.

    Honestly, Chainsword and knife are rather close. Yes there is a damage difference, but the melee user cannot trade that bolter for a meltagun either e.g. And the bolt pistol comes with a limited ammo supply for starters. In the case of Eldar, no melee has a shield, nor can they cap.
    My suggestion would be to reduce the LP costs of all melee weapons, by 50 points. Basically: an extra grenade.
    a power weapon would be cheaper than a Plasma gun, but only by 50 points.
    Conversely: allow an extra mod slot on the melee weapons.

    4) I personally think perhaps executing a melee attack against an enemy should = swap to melee weapon,
    if you are holding a ranged weapon that would include swapping to pistol. (makes sense in 40k context, no? Certainly makes more sense to me to swap to pistol than to see Dark Reaper executing spin attack and trying to stab opponent to death with a blunt missile launcher..)
    Warlocks, Sorc,.. already hold a melee weapon (their sword!) so should not force-swap from power to pistol.

    5) In terms of 'executing' people to prevent rezzing: ranged weapons can just shoot the downed player to finish him; very often this is the better choice. a sword-melee can likely 'finish' the job in 2 swings, but is exposed to do so. The ranged 'finisher', even if he gets downed, is likely more .. reachable to be rezzed.
    On the other hand, I'd rather not see melee kill = auto-execute either, so I don't have an immediate good solution. The below is just.. one approach.
    Melee brutality: being downed with a melee weapon (besides knife) means the only way to save you is by performing a 'rescue' (or Apothecary use a medkit) animation? So simply holding the heal-channel from range will keep you alive, but not actually revive you. Same for Apothecary: the AoE grenade won't rezz a melee-kill.
    Gotta 'melee' to rezz the melee downed player.

    EDIT: quite a bit of the above, and this thread is basically about the power level of knife vs sword. Even relative to powersword.
    It is 79-134 in damage, vs 100-170.
    This allows a ranged user to deal quite a bit of damage back.
    Perhaps the simplest balancing solution would be to simply take a step back, and agree to lower knife 'fast attack' damage; should a knife really deal 80% of the damage of a -chain-sword? a powersword? a force sword?
    Just a bit less damage, e.g. dropping fast attack down to 70-72 may require the knife-user to use an extra swing vs some Raptor builds, and still means the knife deals more damage than a bolter-shot to the chest, or indeed a shot from a plasma gun.
    This would imply the knife is more for defense than actually killing, relative to now; and should really be combined with nr 4 above: using a melee attack vs an enemy = you're now holding knife & pistol. Or melee weapon & something.
    Njord-Halfhand likes this.
  9. 1. (see entire video below)
    2. (see entire video below)
    3. (see entire video below)

    Video covers 3 specific imbalances between melee and ranged. Each is clearly listed and clearly explained.

    Twirl likes this.
  10. Covi Doomness1000 Recruit

    I've been thinking about this for a long time, because I didn't want to post until I had something I could fully get behind as a change.

    I know that melee is going for a "rock paper scissors" mechanic, but we've all seen videos of how the stun is broken, mostly when used BY RANGE against melee. You want to balance Range vs Melee:

    1. Remove Stun from the game and replace with something that lets you quickly close the gap, a charge/dash/rush/thrust/stab attack.
    2. Make it so that being attacked at close range stuns your ranged weapon for a moment (or switches you to your secondary, and doesn't let you switch back for a moment... huh, that would be easier if the devastators had sidearms). You are now "locked in melee" for a moment and thus can only counter with your own melee weapon (or possibly your melee and sidearm).

    This would not only balance range-vs-melee, but would also fix much of what's wrong with melee (since the main problem that I see in melee-vs-melee is the dang Stun attack drawing out fights and making everything frustrating). It would also give you a reason to use the nicer combat knives since you never know when you'll be forced to use it not just because you don't want to take time to reload but because you'll actually have to defend yourself against melee attacks with it.

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