I'm starting this thread so that we can discuss what we think of the flyers in the current state of Warhammer 40k, since I know people have very different views on them, and I'd like to hear what everyone has to say and how their mechanics can be improved. First, I'll start by saying that, for me, most flyers (especially vehicles) have no place in standard 40k games. There, I said it. Even at the 2k points scale, a 40k game is at most platoon-level (it may include 3 or more of what modern armies call "platoons", but it's still not a company). At this scale, a close-support gunship like a Stormtalon may be alright, but air-superiority fighters or bombers, definitely aren't. It starts getting really ridiculous when such high-speed and/or high-altitude vehicles start getting shot down by hand weapons. I'll take two WW2 games (without naming them, but I assure you they exist) as examples. None of them are perfect, of course, but they'll explain my viewpoint pretty well. - first, there's is a pretty popular company-based, 15mm game. It leads to battles the size of which you can see in Epic 40k, for example. At this scale, flyers are alright (independently of the exact mechanics), because the size of the battlefield allows for more "real" manoeuvres. - for my second example, I'll talk about a platoon-based game, in 28mm. In that game, and again it's far from perfect, planes are mostly abstracted. You call in an airstrike, when they arrive the opponent can try shooting them down with his dedicated anti-air, if the planes survived you resolve their attack. No miniature actually needed. The mere fact that, in both games, you need dedicated anti-air weapons to deal with planes, makes them already much more interesting. While in 40k, against the weaker ones, a bolter salvo is enough to deal with them... even though they are supposed to fly waaaay too high and too fast for them to reach. Which brings me to my second point: the unbalance between various flyers. We can all agree that some of them, namely the hellturkey, the flying croissant, and the vendetta, are way undercosted compared to their firepower and survivability, while most of them (eldar, tau, Dark Angels...), with their weak armour (10 means even a bolter can glance them to death) are pretty much useless. Anything that requires heavy AA weaponry should be Apocalypse only IMHO, and every flyer categorized as a bomber or an air-superiority fighter should need heavy AA to take down. Then there's the issue of FMC. Well, actually, I don't have much of an issue with them, I think the rules work quite well. They don't fly so fast that you need dedicated weapons to take them down, the simple fact that they're flying (probably not in a straight line towards you) is enough to warrant hitting them on 6's. Giving them a jinx save on top of that may be a bit much in some cases, but they also really need it when the big guns start shooting them (game-wise, they should be scary and survivable), so it's still alright I guess. Brother Shrimp, out.