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First Ork Model Released

Discussion in 'Orks' started by Wolffe, Jun 25, 2014.

  1. There are depictions where you can see it through the skin though. A couple of the comics, at least. I can't think of a case where a space marine is topless and you can't see the black carapace, but there really aren't that many images of space marines out of armor and I won't claim any definitive knowledge in this area.
  2. Kaazid GarySharp Well-Known Member

    There is an argument that I've been making for ages, the lore /Black Library are fictional works and for a great one piece of lore contradicts the next, add to that that most of the lore novels are massaging the egos of Space Marines.

    The TT was there first, the lore increased over time to give the TT a back ground and history and to sell fictional novels, I'm not saying the lore isn't important but it's no more or less important than the TT. In fact the TT codices, the rules and stories therein can also be considered lore.

    I don't dismiss the lore, I simply recognise that it has evolved and changed over time, Space Marines used to be human sized psychos and religious fanatics in power armour, now some books put them at almost 10 foot tall.

    In short we all have parts of the lore that we prefer and there are parts of the lore that disagree with those, the TT rules keep getting upgraded and disagree with older versions ect so we need to pick a logical middle ground. The lore should exist as generalisations not as specifics.

    Add to that there is next to no books in the Black Library with Orkz as the protagonists and I'm not about to accept what a novel about how great Marines are says about Orkz as it is written to display them in a bad light.

    In short no TT is not the same as lore, but lore contradicts itself and is not more or less important than the TT game.
    Gottar_Krakdskull likes this.
  3. Kaazid GarySharp Well-Known Member

    Something else to think about when comparing an Ork to a Marine lore wise, the Average Ork Warboss (which everyone can agree will destroy a standard space marine and mutilate a Terminator, probably even go toe to toe with a dreadnought) is about 30 years old from boy to boss, the average Space Marine is decades old, champions sometimes a century old.

    Give your average Ork that long in battle experience, assuming he survives, he would be God like. Orkz are a race created for war, they are battle ready from spawning within 10 years and Nobz within 15 -20, bosses within 30.

    THAT alone makes them tougher than Marines.
  4. Bossaroo bossaroo Well-Known Member

    Thank you various people for correcting me I think ? Lots of contradiction there. Any ways kaazid does kinda have a point. A space marine In armor actual stands less a chance against guardsmen in comparison to an ork due to the fact an ork boy is almost on equal footing in close combat to a scout whilst a space marine wearing nothing but black carapace unarmed is pretty much a guardsmen but a lot taller. But back on topic from when I accidentally derailed it I think really the ork model could be refined a bit ( no potbelly ) but other than a few things I really like it.
    GarySharp likes this.
  5. Akragth Akragth Well-Known Member

    I quite like that model. Orks should look ragtag, and porky around the gut from what I've seen of them, I think it caught it well.

    The latest marine codex has a picture showing the carapace as just ports protruding from beneath the skin. You can't see the whole thing, though.

    That's an extremely muscular and agile guardsman, to be comparable to a marine. Marines have denser bones and muscle fiber, their strength would dwarf that of a human - even without the armour. The power armour enhances their strength, sure, but it isn't the sole reason for it.
  6. Kaazid GarySharp Well-Known Member

    An un-armoured marine is probably around the same level of ability as a commissar, exceptional guardsmen get promoted to Space Marines (it's happened multiple times in lore) and have the gene seed added to their genetic coding.

    In fact Space Wolves tend not to clone warriors but apply their gene seed to home born Fenrisien hunters of young adult age.

    It's also good to note that an Ogryn is also technically a human as well, planetary evolution and pressures take their toll.
  7. Akragth Akragth Well-Known Member

    In what regard? Genuine curiosity.

    I mean, the marine has superior eye sight, reaction time, hearing, balance, a denser skeleton, denser muscle fibre and the ability to spit acid. He basically can't drown, can near instantly clot wounds, has extra protection against poison, radiation, extreme temperatures and even vacuums.

    Don't get me wrong, the power armour definitely augments their ability. But even naked they're still definitely more than ''tall guardsmen'' as described earlier on. In a straight up brawl, an Ogryn may have a chance against a naked marine, because they're bloody strong (dumber than a bag of nails, though, which would likely to their undoing), but your average guardsman or commissar wouldn't have a prayer.

    How many chapters clone warriors? RG tried, if I recall, but lost the tech. They all recruit strong, young warriors from various worlds. Some can be IG, sure, if they survive the transition. Not really sure the relevance of that bit though, to be honest.
  8. No impressed at all, wee need full version of this model and only after that we can discuss it)
  9. Kaazid GarySharp Well-Known Member

    I think the problem here is the lore contradictions and the evolution of Space Marines in the literature of the BL over the years, like I pointed out earlier go back to the BL literature from 1998/2000 then Space Marines were no more than suped up humans in power armour and an Ogryn would rip a terminator apart, of the years they've been describe as larger and more powerful and slowly evolved.

    Superior eye sight, denser muscle and a stronger skeleton, sure, instant clotting wounds, spitting acid and can't drown that just some fiction writer letting loose his imagination and GW has never reigned it in or established any boundaries.

    I'd be interested to see which novel established the spitting acid, instant clotting wounds and can't drown idea, if or not it was a literary vehicle for that story or they were trying to establish it for all Space Marines of all legions, which to me is a bit ridiculous.

    As for the comparison a Commissar is a combat veteran, more powerful and experienced than even your IG veterans, and has the tenacity, dedication, extreme fundamental fanaticism and bloody mindedness of an Inquisitor, they are not as strong and skilful as a marine but their strength lies in the mental fanaticism, a marnie can shrug off a lot of physical wounds while a Commissar has the will and bloody mindedness to hold his guts in and fight on screaming "it's just a flesh wound!".

    The relevance was pointing out that Space Marine Legions recruit from IG ranks, meaning there are guardsmen that are tough enough to become marines, not that guardsmen are as tough as marines but you need a certain level of toughness to survive the transition and training. It's my observation that when people use the lore to compare IG to LSM they tend to look at experienced marines vs green IG recruits/cannon fodder as opposed to experienced IG veterans.
    bossaroo likes this.
  10. Kaazid GarySharp Well-Known Member

    Some of the things people keep quoting as loyalist Space Marine abilities would be more at home with Chaos mutations.

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