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Fire dragon. May be a nerf or not.

Discussion in 'Eldar' started by The-Forge-Dragon, Jun 28, 2017.


Should fire dragon melta bombs be a single cooldown grenade instead of a charge based pack?

  1. Yes.

  2. No.

  3. Make them cooldown but keep the pack.

  4. Have cooldown based single bombs, and a charge based two pack.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    No need to take it personally and neither did I know who originally posted it to tag them, not do I have saved a link for reference.
    All I remember was, that you, assuming we are even talking about the same post here, made a point reaching the conclusion that it would take a Dragon longer to kill a Rhino than vice versa, which, as I stated above might not be entirely untrue, but a missleading and incorrect way to look at it.
    I also remember something being odd about the whole thing, like operating under the assumption that you place the second FB after the first one detonated or something?
    (Because, from the top of my head I dont know, how you would reach the original conclusion in the first place, considering both parties have to wait for the detonation of the first bomb before a kill can happen)
    Whether it was your primary goal or not and regardless of any conclusions reached after, the 'math' I am referring to involved a lot of illogical steps in order to frame a specific result.
    It would, however, be possible that you were deliberately extremising the case for the sake of an argument, as in Reductio ad Absurdum.
  2. Oldmannings Recruit

    Thana's post's assumptions are terrible (you don't sit there waiting for your first bomb to go off before starting to rev up the melta or set your second bomb).

    If you bother fixing those stupid assumptions, though, you still get the same broad picture. An LSM player placing a bomb and dumping 1.5 seconds of melta into a WS's butt is the comparator for a FD placing two bombs. The total time differential is around .5 seconds.

    This .5 seconds in the span of the "time behind the rhino" duration is a decent 20%. In the span of the "running to the Rhino, dodging fire, circling around marines, etc." context, the difference is near zero. This is why I keep saying the only way this issue even looks remotely plausible as a balance issue is if you're popping out of your rhino and upset your chance respawn didn't outweigh the entire value proposition of a close range AV class.
    Ghetsum likes this.
  3. Thana Thana Curator

    No. Again I invite you to go reread it instead of making up stuff not even writen there. All I stated that it is not smart to put 1 Melta Bomb ontop of another. 1 can cancel the other bomb out. It's rare but it happens. What i did say is that 1 explosion triggers the other. Again go read it instead of writing stuff I did not say.
    No answer to my question / rude

    I had 2 TTK's. 1 for pre detonating your own melta bomb(s). 1 for letting it tick down on it's.
    Could you please be so kind to qoute where i wrote that? The forum has a pretty good search function.
    Ghetsum likes this.
  4. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    I actually did track down the original post in the meantime.
    The theoretical frame of 2.5 seconds for a kill is unrealistic. Its possible, yet not plausible. I understand why you used it for your argument, but I dont think it ever actually happens in-game.
    And still remains that a Rhino is effectively dead after the 1 second needed to place both bombs, the detonation time doesnt matter, just as the span between incapacitation and destruction does not.
    For the record: I still agree with your conclusion. The DFB can not 'simply' be removed, we need some sort of compensation for both the Dragon and the Faction.

    As for your question: I made the distinction between 'TTK' and 'effective TTK' whereas 'effective' is supposed to be a more accurate reflection of what actually happens in game, rather than a purely hypothetical construct with no basis in reality.
    For instance: Shooting a boltgun at an opponent yields a certain TTK, based on mathmatical factors like damage, EHP, penetration etc.
    However a more realistic reflection would take into account relative movement, hitbox-size, average headshot-rate or even player accuracy, which are not factors that can easily, mathmatically be determined and only approximated, if done right however still result in a better reflection of actual events as present in the game.

    Finally: You are still taking this personally, as an Ad-Hominem attack, rather than a critical (and widely missremembered) review of one of your thesis. If you are not willing to change that attitude, please do not bother to continue the discussion, as I am really not interested in making this some sort of fight, further derailing from the topic at hand.
  5. Oldmannings Recruit

  6. Thana Thana Curator

    But you where writing stuff that I clearly did not write:
    "I also remember something being odd about the whole thing, like operating under the assumption that you place the second FB after the first one detonated or something?"

    How would you want me to take you seriously if I just asked you to reread and you didn't.

    Again. Yes a Rhino is considered dead once both bombs are on. That still does no change the TTK. We would have to argue even if it's dead when burning or dead after it explodes. Since killing a Predator will not stop it from shooting your team.

    Always when we look at TTK we look at the numbers given from the game. Ofc you are not going to add ADAD or rolling to the equation. Since we don't have a set number for iframes and what ADAD really does to hitscan weapons.

    I am not defending the dubble melta bombs. Some change has to happen. But if they do they also have to look at the 4800 HP wave serpent vs 8000 HP Rhino.
    Sily likes this.

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