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Fire dragon. May be a nerf or not.

Discussion in 'Eldar' started by The-Forge-Dragon, Jun 28, 2017.

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Should fire dragon melta bombs be a single cooldown grenade instead of a charge based pack?

  1. Yes.

  2. No.

  3. Make them cooldown but keep the pack.

  4. Have cooldown based single bombs, and a charge based two pack.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Ghetsum Ghetsum First Blood!

    Yes, we're ignoring it, because it charges slows, cools down slower, and deals less damage than a lascannon. So, it does not do lascannon damage, fires slower, is not hitscan, and is in all ways inferior to a lascannon. The whole "assymetrical balance" would mean they're superior in some ways, and inferior in others, not inferior in all ways. Get over yourself.
  2. Ghetsum Ghetsum First Blood!

    It's actually faster to kill a Wave Serpent, because of the one second delay between melta-bomb deployments. The time between deployment and explosion is greater than the time needed with a meltagun to burn those 800hp off a serpent.

    Another forum user actually did the math for us, I don't remember where... But Marines can kill wave serpents like a half second faster than a Fire Dragon can kill a Rhino because of that. The actual numbers say that Fire Dragons are thus underperforming.

    But facts don't matter, right?
  3. Rheeva Rheeva Steam Early Access

    Sorry, but despite being technically on your side, this is just plain wrong.
    I have seen the 'math' and it was deliberately missleading. The point is that a fire dragon can kill a vehicle in a second. Once the bombs are placed, its dead. It doesnt matter how long they take to explode, no counterplay exists at any point in time after the plant.

    This is like saying Ailments shouldnt be factored into DPS because they are time-delayed. Actually its worse, as Ailments can be healed against.
  4. Ghetsum Ghetsum First Blood!

    You may consider it "misleading" but it's factually correct.

    As I said, facts don't matter, right?

    The TTK to destroy a Rhino by a Fire Dragon is greater than that of the TTK on a Wave serpent by a Melta/Melta Traitor/Tactical. True or False? True.

    The counterplay is shooting them before they do it because they have significantly less survivability than their corresponding classes in other factions. The counterplay happens prior to that TTK. To try to claim otherwise is deliberately misleading. And... they're significantly worse at that counterplay than their equivalents in the marine factions. The simple fact is, if any of these classes make it to an unattended transport, that transport is destroyed within seconds.

    This is not the case when CSM and LSM play against each other. They have counterplay after the player makes it to the vehicle possible. Neither has that opportunity when it's marine vs Eldar. And that's fine, because neither has that opportunity.
  5. Ghetsum Ghetsum First Blood!

    Also, this is a terrible false equivalency.
  6. Rheeva Rheeva Steam Early Access

    Honestly: Noone shoots me before I plant both bombs. I am a pretty good Dragon, the literally only way you can stop me is by driving around like a maniac.
    As for your question: False. The second I planted both Bombs, the Rhino is dead. Effective TTK is much smaller than anything comparable for other factions.
    As I said: You can not take into account the detonation time, as it literally doesnt matter, the only time frame relevant is the one where you could still interrupt the kill.
    A Rhino also stays active for some time after its effective destruction, I do not take this into account for TTK either.

    You are generally correct about the 'unattended transport'. However:
    -A normal Melta or Multimelta can and often will get killed in time, meaning they need a second run.
    In practice, due to passive spawning, there is a pretty good chance someone is going to be around to kill the attacker in time, which is not the case for a Fire Dragon.
    -However, due to the existence of weapons like Lascannons and Grav-Guns, other factions actually have an easier time dealing with a defended or manned Vehicle, also creating an inbalance due to lack of counterplay, but on a completely different level.
    This is a related Problem and should be adressed simultaneously, but it is not the same problem.
    -What you are not taking into account is our movement speed. It actually is much easier for an Eldar to slip out the fortress, make her way down to the transport and blow it up.
    Partially its also a question of Playstyle. Most Marines simply do not want to do the stealthrun, as its counter-intuitve, but that is, in fact, their own problem. Yet, the speed and hitbox help a lot.
    -Finally we have the Serpent. Or generally our tanks. With a Falcon I can just drive between ammo crates and Rhinos and take one out every 30 or so seconds. A serpent is even faster. Not only are our vehicles much more maneuverable and allow this type of transportation, they also can pin an enemy vehicle down long enough to place, and they can effectively fight(run over) whoever comes out of the enemy tank to stop the Dragon.
    The current Eldar vehicles very much amplify the problems created by the Double Fusion Bomb.
    -Finally keep in mind that it is much more fun and rewarding to drive a serpent than a Rhino, meaning that we will have a lot more pilots eager to keep vehicles safe.

    A lot of it is PEBCAK, not attenting to tanks, not running stealth, but that doesnt make them less valid concerns.
    The game balance takes place in reality, not in a theoretical world. That means, if noone is to be found to readily pilot a Rhino, balance has to be achieved on the premise that Rhinos are undefended.
    In a perfect scenario, the game would be balanced and fun even if noone defended transports.
    Alternatively defending Transports is a neccessity, but also a rewarding and pleasureable experience.
    However making it absoultely akward and with close to no exp-gain, whilst also being one of the most vital mechanics to win a game is not a good solution and you can not just say 'thats our premise and this is how it has to work'.

    Right now its a git-gut issue. Right now, as balance exists, enemies of the Eldar can decide to either have fun or win, which is probabaly a contributing factor to why our Faction is hated so much.
    If, in the current state of the Game, transports are left unattended, they deserve the loss.
    However, with that in mind, that doesnt mean that something should not change.
    We still have to work towards creating a better framework in which this sort of gameplay is no longer an issue, if players do not enjoy the experience.
    Nerfing or removing the Double Fusion Bomb is a possible first step (followed by buffing Eldar across the Board so we are less reliant on it and adding alternative means of AV for the FD)
    Alternatively the Transport system has to be looked at and reworked in its entirety, so its impact on the game is changed or lessened.
  7. Oldmannings Recruit

    I'm astounded that your hypothetical for balancing AV involves you running to an attended transport, not having it move away or get shot in the process, set up both of your bombs, then die. Sounds an awful lot like the transport wasn't attended.

    Which, again, it wasn't, because in your hypothetical "attending" your rhino is actually respawning at it after the FD is behind it, setting up bombs.

    Potent? Dude, lets take a look at the fusion gun alone. You can barely kill 2 vehicles if you aren't forced to shoot players on foot before you run out of ammo. Doing so requires around 36 seconds, too, which is pretty much double the longest respawn timer in the game. Given that most maps have a kill rate of approximately 10/minute, that means that you're waiting 6 seconds for a death, then around 10 seconds for a respawn. Accordingly, during your little roast fest, you can expect 3 people to spawn on your head.

    Which you need to kill. With your shitty fucking fusion gun.

    But then that eats up enough ammo to prevent you from killing the second transport. So despite being a hero, winning 3 1v1s and making it to 2 unattended transports, you die when the fourth respawns and you're relying on your pistol. You then stop playing FD until you unlock double melta or Fuegen's. Then people tell you you're a suicidal dipshit.

    This happens often when you don't have a WS to ride around in.

    Because when LSM and Chaos play, which is 90% of their fights, Rhinos take twice as long to kill. A Rhino rolls up to yours. Both of you try to drive to avoid some stupid collision. Can't because the thing handles like molasses. Some dude jumps out, pops a Melta on your Rhino, and you're at 4k hp. Ensue fight to see who can land 2 full cooldowns of melta to finish the job. Unless there's a MoN, in which case they get blown up.

    That's their comparison point. They compare what Chaos usually does to what Eldar HAS to do.
    Ghetsum likes this.
  8. Ghetsum Ghetsum First Blood!

    The time frame where you can interrupt the kill is - if we assume 5 seconds of being able to shoot you while you're running up, even though it's often longer than that - about 6 seconds with a fire dragon, and 8 seconds with an MoS Traitor. Given the 25% increased survivability of the Traitor, those numbers look right, don't they?

    I disagree completely. From experience running around as a MoS Traitor with a Meltagun and Meltabomb, it takes at least 2, if not three or four people to stop me from destroying a Wave Serpent before I can destroy it. If there's that many around, someone's likely driving it, and then I'm just lawnmowered (which is a much bigger problem).

    Without question.

    The movement speed difference between an MoS traitor and a Fire Dragon is not significant in this regard. The hitbox would be significant, if Eldar heads weren't so big and squishy. But they are, so it's not.

    The vehicles ARE the problem. Not the double fusion bombs. The double fusion bombs are necessary to make up for the vehicle health disparity. Nothing makes up for the lawnmower man effect, however.

    That makes the state of vehicles to be the problem, not the state of Fire Dragons. Vehicles are currently terrible for game mechanics, design, reward, and fun. Yet critical to success. This needs to be fixed.

    If the problem is the person playing, that totally does make the concern invalid from a game design standpoint. The not attending to tanks issue is a problem with vehicles not being rewarding and interesting to do that with, and IS a valid concern.

    I disagree once again. Balance does not have to be achieved on the premise that rhinos will be undefended. Balance can be achieved by fixing vehicles and making that portion of the gameplay rewarding and fun.

    Once again, I disagree with your premise, and I wonder if you're just begging the question of purpose. No, that is NOT a perfect scenario. That's an abysmal failure of a scenario, where you have written off a portion of the gameplay as an abject failure. That's pretty much the opposite of a perfect scenario.

    It already is almost a necessity if you want to win a supremacy match.

    You're right, it's not a good solution. It's something they've been saying they're fixing for, what... 8 months now? I'm not saying that's how it has to work, I'm saying that's currently how it works. I hate how it works, but how it works is at least somewhat balanced. Removing that balance without addressing the actual problem isn't a way to fix anything.

    I have plenty of fun assuming our vehicles will be destroyed, and ensuring I do the same to the Eldar. It's easy, fun, and rewarding. But then again, I mostly play Eldar and Chaos, so...

    Totally. But the problem is vehicles, not Fire Dragons.

    I have absolutely zero faith that after Fire Dragons get nerfed, Eldar would then get buffed. There's almost zero chance of that. So, assuming that's not on the table, which it really isn't, do you still think Fire Dragons should get nerfed?
  9. Asyran Eldritch Arkhona Vanguard

    I'm saying that I can instagib a transport even if people are shooting at me. I just have to abuse Iframes and live long enough to hit G twice. That's it.

    I can die 1 second later, but my task is complete and the transport is dead.
  10. Thana Thana Curator

    @Rheeva it might be nice if you tag me if your going to talk like that about my post.

    I invite you to reread my post and to talk i have with @Slough_Monster after. I clearly stated this was a TTK of Fire Dragon vs Rhino and Astartes vs grav-tank. I also stated that once both melta bombs are on the vehicle is as good as dead.

    Could you Define what TTK stands for?
    Ghetsum likes this.

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