The designs of many of which are typically genderless in build and do not require radical re-modifications to accept a female build over a male one. Both Fantasy Flight and Black Library have both featured a number of articles focusing upon armour and power armour time and time again, and save for exceptions such as the Sisters of battle, more than a few have noted to be genderless. The ceremonial versions of House Divine, a number of Inquisitorial suits and the like have been noted to fit both fine, without causing any issues, and even those of Imperial Guard have been consistently depicted as being relatively identical, rather than needing abrupt reshaping to fit one gender over the next. Except you wouldn't. At all. For the reasons discussed above over and over again, the actual process of building an astartes wouldn't cause any of these problems at all, and if anything it would avoid the bulk of any issues arising from gender differences. Given the actual process itself effectively robs the subject of gender itself, in terms of impact upon the body, awareness and desire or even how it naturally shapes them, a relatively similar build would work for both. The same answer goes for the issues cited in waste management given the aforementioned castration - which once again has varied from one artist to the next in terms of depiction, but with more than a few favouring the literal version especially in recent years. As for reshaping the body, again that's been answered multiple times both in this post and past ones please keep up, and the lack of sexual characteristics themselves would stem from how the process robs an astartes of those. Some might still be present, but that would come down to those already discussed. Really, I would expect better than this. It's arguments like this why we keep having morons declaring that any female in armour needs literal breastplates shaped exactly to their form. No, you really didn't. You just skipped the entire point citing the Black Dragons and why they were brought up. Go back and re-read it, then answer it properly please. I've given you a great deal of leeway in how you've repeatedly skipped or avoided points, but i'm losing my patience with this. I mean the ones which are noted to be massive with an augmented skeletal structure and overgrown ribcages to assist in that higher damage threshold: "Augmented Skeleton: During the inception of the Sons of Antaeus Chapter, its creators extensively modified the gene-seed in order to create Space Marines of exceptional durability and toughness. How they achieved this is unknown, whether their skeletal structure was enhanced with some artificial substance, or whether a more esoteric procedure was used." I'm rather surprised that someone dubbing himself "loremaster" to lord over others would forget about that particular detail, or be so reliant as to look into a resource so poorly updated as Lexicanum. Now, again, go back and actually answer the points brought up in that paragraph you quoted. How many Salamanders share the Obsidian skin of their primarch. How many Raven Guard retain the albino completion of Corax. How many Blood Angels retained the angelic looks of Sanguinius, until their long haired pretty boy looks have practically become a running gag among several authors. How many Space Wolves share Russ' enhanced senses, strength, animalistic traits and ferocity. How many of Magnus' sons found their abilities enhanced or further agumented by his gene-seed. "Lots" I think is the word you're looking for. Many of their innate individual traits massively impact physical aspects in many cases, or mental in other ones, and a number of details are pre-programmed into the gene-seed influencing their development. This only further supports the idea of a female primarch making this possible, for those who wish to avoid disrupting the canon by using this particular loophole for themselves - Again I cite this point as you do seem to keep missing the actual reason that brief section in a much longer work was added. Except in a number of cases they weren't. Onslaught was not made with astartes initially in mind, and intended for humans despite the long term effects, it's just that astartes physiology overcame the negative physical aspects of them. That said, please re-read what you quoted as you seem to have missed the entire point of that brief extract. Oh good god, please tell me you're not serious. Warhammer 40,000 and Black Library approach real science in the same way - If it sounds vague or semi-plausible enough to get away with it, they'll do it, actual impact or long term consequences be damned. It's for this reason that we have the rather unscientific concept of detailed genetic memory arising time and time again, upright mushroom men who can bend reality to their will and are filled with blood, the impact of energy weapons varying heavily depending upon drama, sloped armour meaning nothing and aerodynamics being practically non-existent. To say it's grounded in real science is like claiming that Batman swinging through Gotham city is grounded in science. It's technically true, but overlooks details like the strain it would place upon him or the fact it would tear through his muscles given the length and sudden halts of his swings. Still, if that's not enough, I decided to just skip this and ask someone in GW directly: "Would you say Warhammer 40,000 is grounded in hard science?" "Categorically not - it's "science fantasy", a future model based upon the pseudo-scientific explanation of magic." I can ask other authors or editors if you want, and have done, but you'd get the same result. Looking this stuff up and comparing it with real life accounts of humans of unnaturally great height. An astartes height, on average, ranges from seven to eight foot tall depending upon the writer so it was a natural starting point. Most recorded tall individuals were noted to have no end of physical issues when it comes to their health, both in terms of strain placed upon their heart and elements of their bone structures. Robert Wadlow required braced to move thanks to his innate height, John Rogan could only move with the use of crutches thanks to his height and build then eventually not at all, Chandra Bahadur Dangi required the constant use of a walking stick to move, and the list goes on. The constant strain of movement and activity on a human body never built for that scale and against this level of gravity is hardly something which can so easily brushed aside, and those with overactive growth hormones encounter more health issues than turning into supermen. Even if such examples were to suddenly and massively muscle up, the greater muscular structure would not counter the problems introduced with the greater height, and if anything the greater weight would only cause more long term failings. Add in the fact that these guys are supposed to move like Olympians on a daily basis and placing near endless strain upon them alongside the power armour issue, and most marines would be robotic from the knees down at least. The reason they're not is because people are willing to accept science bending for the sake of universe building, and the creators really did not give THAT much of a damn. As for the ceramics, that only opens up a whole new can of worms when it comes to causing no end of biological problems given how it is introduced to the body. Chemical, except for those which are psychic, like the examples cited in the very paragraph you just quoted. There are several ways of approaching it, yes, but psychic versions have arisen multiple times over and the more destructive version is generally employed by those who don't need or don't care about retaining prior memories, or simply don't have the facilities for it. The worst criminals, for example, are treated to a complete mind wipe and all traces of prior history are removed, as are those who serve the Inquisition at a serf capacity. Those who are required to forget about certain aspects or have bits of their memory altered can be done without erasing their entire history, sometimes even adding bits in. The Mars trilogy featured a Farseer doing just this to a human, Gaunt's Ghosts was the same with and without surgical alterations needed, and we know the astartes do not have their entire history wiped out every time they learn about something involving the Grey Knights as they remember past honours, traditions, and even older campaigns. It is far from unfeasible, and plenty of prior examples of this exist in Warhammer tales proving its use time and time again, even with vast numbers of people in some cases. Short answer: Draigo. Long answer: Really, we're talking about the single most psychically powerful being with a physical body to ever walk the galaxy. Lesser psykers of the alpha class have managed to put entire worlds under their thrall in some cases, mentally bend those who would normally be immune to such affects to their will, bend reality and unleash Chaos. The Emperor himself has never been depicted as using more than a fraction of his strength at a time, or without focusing all of it upon a single goal such as blocking up the remnants of the Imperial Webway. What little we have seen of him from one time to the next has involved him easily teleporting for light-years at a time, setting off a psychic nuke, and serving as a giant galactic lighthouse to guide all ships from across the entire galaxy. While dead no less. In terms of limitations and capabilities, much like the science aspect above it really comes down to drama and what the story can get away with. So long as internal laws and prior examples are not contradicted drastically, the actual level of power and what they can get away with ultimately comes down to suspension of disbelief and how well the story is told. It's akin to asking what's Superman's physical limit, how far can Nightcrawler teleport or how fast is hyperspace in a generic science fiction setting. It doesn't matter so long as they're amazing, and don't break those internal laws people are willing to accept them. To use the Superman example, lifting an entire continent made of kryptonite was a little bit too much for audiences. In the case of Warhammer 40,000, it would be having the Emperor pulling off the nonsense we had Draigo doing inside the Warp. He's good, but he's not that good.
Except you have no proof of that, no citation, no defining point which cited that this was his limit and no further. What we do get is clouded and hidden by half-memories and an old history, and is thrown further into question by the whispers of Chaos itself. Plus, if that example alone demonstrated his absolute telepathic limit, the range and capacity of the Astronomican would be impossible even while channeled with his powers. Well, you know, they actually go ahead and purge the records as if they were annihilated, to keep up that lie. Pardon me, but did you actually read the original statement at all? Normally I wouldn't ask but this is quite the bold thing to abruptly overlook here. As for claiming this is impossible somehow, keep in mind the Inquisition has performed such acts a hundred times over with lord knows how many chapters which have been purged or declared excommunicate for one reason or another. It seems to work fairly well save for certain internal records on occasion, and while those examples are indeed smaller, the Inquisition itself was not working with a single guiding force or working with one mind as its spiritual predecessor was here. Plus, they did lack a rather powerful gold clad telepath putting his will behind it. Indeed, at which point the astartes themselves would probably make a token appearance and move on, also limiting their presence there. Unless they wanted to specifically aggrandize themselves or felt some innate interest in that world there would have been no specific reason to hang around. Even if they did, there are ways any innate information could be silenced about the legion there. The same ones used to silence knowledge and information about the traitor legions later on. Ah you must mean those non-existant plot holes you've introduced after I have answered and corrected your every objection to this idea. There's been a lot of those thus far and you have yet to offer a single true counterpoint to any answer, save for going back to one or two. Generally when you claim there's a plot hole and someone proves there isn't, it's a good sign that there's not one. So, yes, you are. You have argued relentlessly that a female astartes is impossible because of real world science, save for this bits which actually disprove your argument and are founded on existing research. You have then argued relentlessly that it is perfectly fine to mash together a superhuman wolf-man out of DNA strands - a science fiction story element which has been thrown into heavy question time and time again, but that's fine somehow. The quotes, citing how the setting uses DNA basically as Lego bricks, only further prove that point. Yes, hence why the opening post brought up that point. Hence why it cited the difficulties and existing problems of genetic comparability, the issues behind adapting them to a new chapter and the multiple problems behind one suddenly existing. It's also why one small section of that opening post - the one you're using as an excuse to derail this entire thread into some self-worshiping monument to you as a "loremaster" - noted that it would only be feasible were it to start at the primarch stage. If you had taken a few minutes to fully read it rather than seeing it as some excuse to start this nonsense anew, perhaps you might have actually realised that. No. No, you don't get to do that. Go back and actually answer those paragraphs in full, don't jump every point there citing the problems with your argument in some hand-waved non-answer ignoring every point addressed to you. If you are half the self-superior fan you seem to claim to be, you would be able to answer that point rather than jumping right over it with this single sentence which doesn't resolve a single point. If you're wondering why i'm so hostile at the moment, this combination of your attitude and willingness to jump a major counterpoint which debunks your arguments like here is what really irritated me. Anyway, as i'm a little late here it seems worth weighing in upon later arguments. Some points i'll skip as I don't have anything to actually contribute which other members did not answer better, so forgive me if I do skip a few statements rather than putting "what he said" once in a while. Save of course for the point where he started the entire project, creating the primarchs to begin with and planning out how he would shape the legions themselves. Again, this is a key point the entire opening post hinged upon and cited as the only viable starting point to allow female recruited astartes to exist. Alright, most of those I can agree with, but not the last one. How do you know the monetary cost cannot be met by the Imperium, given that this is a galactic scale Empire which has entire factory worlds, frequently builds warships kilometers in length and has the technology for viable cloning, genetic modifications for humans and heavy bionic augmentation, that's questionable. The knowledge to perform such an experimentation I could agree with, but not the resources or the cost of any effort somehow being too great. Except of course, most of it doesn't. As discussed time and time again, the vast majority of the overall process is not angled towards a single male build and focuses more upon influencing tthe general development and adaptation of a human body. The actual gender factor seems to be secondary at best, and the process itself effectively renders the subject genderless. How you can accept such obviously outlandish and nonsensical science fiction biology without question, but then utterly reject another basic concept based upon real world science. The same point brought up a few times above, and that's without getting into other things like the Salamanders skin or other odd quirks which are biologically improbable at best. Well, except in this case it's supposedly capable of enhancing any latent werewolf-esque genes and taking them to the Nth degree. The gene-seed itself is noted to either enhance or work with innate aspects of the locals, giving them fangs, fur, ferocity and superhuman senses among more mental animalistic traits, not to mention other odd quirks besides this which are innate to the Wolves. It's the fact that - once again - apparently future science mashed together the DNA of two species to produce a fully functioning person rather than a screaming, malfunctioning mess of a man, which is the problem here, in the face of all your scientific arguments. Alight, hang on a second. So apparently it's fine to argue that something is impossible based upon aspects of real world science and dubious standing because that's the fact today, even with contradictory points and research saying otherwise, ignoring how that might develop in the future. At the same time though, apparently it's fine to argue that future science will enhance a basic astartes process beyond the point where physics seems to actually take effect or just ignores an innate biological flaw as a result of their size. Again, this is something of a double standard in your arguments here. Except that's something of a fanon answer at best and it contradicts a few points brought up in the novels, depicting their physical forms. The Soul Drinkers series brings this up a few times, especially during the first novel, and presents it as a single bony mass of armour. A few other Ben Counter series are the same, and more than a few of Graham McNeill''s works (Ultramarines and Iron Warriors books) have presented it as a single massed shield when detailing fractures or wounds. I don't mind fanon answers as a rule, but when you'r hell bent upon shooting one down which avoid disrupting the canon and promptly throw in your own ones, that seems a little hypocritical. I'd also point out that actually having a fused ribcage would cause all kinds of hell beyond just breathing, movement being one. Even if they were a set of interlocking plates, trying to turn left or right would be damn near impossible if they were so rigidly fused, connected and joined as a single internal flack jacket. Second verse same as the first. To quote the original statement: "Naw, it would most likely turn you into something looking like some sort of chaos spawn (or rejection and death)." Unless I am mistaken, that was more a statement based upon the biological failure and issues simply gluing two species' DNA strands together rather than turning them into a literal Chaos spawn. Gene-seed no, but there is lore involving genetic experimentation, enhancements and development being practiced upon mortal troops and regiments/groups with female soldiers. The examples from M41 involve: The Afriel Strain, which was proven to have female troops among its numbers in several novels and works, the Elysian D-99 detachment who genetically modified for better combat performance, the Gaunt's Ghosts books established that certain warriors of noble houses could have wetworks to increase accuracy or reaction time (Pollo being the key example) and there are older suggestions such as the Gland Warriors, certain Inquisitorial agents, enforcers or hired thugs with the right money. Given they seem to be spread among both genders in many examples, I can't see why the technologically superior M31 would have massive difficulty giving genetic enhancements to someone of a different gender.
Through design. They were a stop gap measure by intention, there to be replaced by a more controlled and diverse force like the astartes. The plan always was for such savage weapons to die out before they could become a major problem, and the Emperor himself tried to ensure that they were killed off in a single fell swoop. I would hope that a supposed "loremaster" would know that. However, other forces utilising genetic and chemical enhancements have been noted to exist during this time, often with a degree of cybernetic implants to further augment them. Geno Five-Two Chiliad is the most obvious among these, with a few background notes of certain armies here and there. As such, while i'd argue against using other enhancements as a point to justify female recruited astartes, it's wrong to declare that the Thunder Warriors were shortlived and just leave it at that. So, astartes then, given that astartes are genderless. That said, i'd suggest against this line of thought given it's delving a little too deep into eugenics even for 40K, and there are more than a few unfortunate implications which could born from trying to examine this. Attempting to justify the existence of female recruited marines via a failed or horrifically mutated gene-seed only seems demeaning and far, far worse than the canon idea of there being no female marines at all. Except for the few thousand words, facts, statements and images proving this otherwise. Simply because you claim it doesn't exist and try to avoid contradictory points doesn't mean you immediately win the argument, "loremaster". We've already discussed how an astartes body itself is visibly reshaped in most depictions, artwork, stories or literature and that they are much more broadly built and have a different physiology to those of a standard human, something supported by multiple sources.While there might be some differences present thanks to that skeletal structure, they would not be so innately massive or varied that entire marks of power armour would need to be reworked or equipment rendered useless. Furthermore, we have current day photographic examples both from body building and dieting that physically healthy females do not immediately produce someone with an hour-glass waistline and ballooned proportions; or that they are somehow bound to innately fail in all physical tests. Perhaps if you were to read what you were actually responding to rather than brushing it off because you consider ego to trump points or facts, you might realise that. As these glands development is affected by oestrogens and growth hormones. If there is lower levels of oestrogens and higher levels of androgens, namely Testosterone, then they don't develop as happens with men and Male Astartes. But such a masculine change in female biochemistry can generally be damaging to the the person in question, without properly adjusting the hormones. And for that you'd need Gene-seed designed to work with female biochemistry. Without this, you'd get female Astartes with breasts. And that is definitely both feminine and different from normal male Astartes.[/quote] So yes, the same effect as with a male astartes undergoing implantation. The sexual organs are either removed or rendered useless via mental and/or physical castration of sorts, helping to render them genderless. As a result, we end up with more or less the same as a male recruit of a marine once the actual process is finished. The actual damage any potential alterations to the biochemistry as a result of those hormones would be limited both by the actual physiology of the marines themselves, the innate processes of developing and reshaping the body, and likely the science behind the process itself. After all, given you argued previously that this is the future so we can just assume science has advanced and overcome certain failings, why not here as well. Especially if we stick with the initial suggestion of a female primarch and gene-seed compatible with females; a point which was the key point cited as the only possible opportunity to introduce a female recruited legion/chapter/soldiers with bolters. No, what inspired the thread was the sheer damn number of times this question kept getting asked. Actually read the damn post. No, wait, i'll make it easy for you and quote the reason I cited at the very start - "Alright, recently i've been thinking about a problem: The fact that every few months someone posts a thread questioning or demanding female astartes. It's not just on this forum but also a few others I frequent as well, and it's becoming a little tedious to keep giving the same answers time and time again. As such, i've been putting together a smash-glass-in-case-of-topic type of article, kind of a ready made response to inform people of the subject and the debate. It's not nearly as detailed as it could be - if it were the thing would be approaching at least 12,000 words - but it's just intended to bring up several major subjects in turn, the issues behind them, the key failings and a possible solution." You could have also merely linked to the last time you tried to flaunt your knowledge to prove your innate superiority to all, rather than derailing this thread further and repeating yourself.
KillboFraggins, I think I see the main crux of our argument. You say Astartes are basically genderless. In what way are they genderless? I ask because as far as I know gender is about how we refer to something, using male or female pronouns, and whether a person is male or female (or transgender). Astartes are referenced with male pronouns. They are identified as male, and to my knowledge they are identified as such in all the works by GW and Black Library. They are not genderless. But they are sexless, as they have no sexual identity. Now I am confused. You directly referenced Loken's description in Horus Rising, which I posted. Now you are talking about Graham McNeill's Ultramarine series (which I'll have to dig out of the attic), which does have a character that is definitely 'Barrel-chested' as they had to adapt a Terminator Breastplate to fit him in power armour, Pasanius Lysane. I just can't remember if he was described in that way, if any other Astartes was described in that way, or if all Astartes are described that way in those books. Without more specific references, it is going to take me a while to address this. And my point was true-scale Marines are a better representation of Astartes proportions than standard GW models. And I did that because you were basing some of your arguments on the standard GW model. So if that model is incorrect in proportions, aren't some of your arguments based on those proportions also incorrect? One of the main points I am trying to make on this is that many artists assume that Astartes are just men in armour, forgetting that it is powered, and assume it follows their form closely. And yet the background on the armour mentions coiled power cables under the armour, life support systems, sensory systems, monitors, system redundancy, medical systems, and more. It specifically references power cables in certain areas on certain armours. For example, Mk VII has an initial cuirass over which lays cables. These seem to be the slim ones like on Mk IV, but in a pattern similar to Mk V or Mk VI. On top of these is laid a Breastplate, usually with some symbol on it like the Imperial Eagle. The only cabling you see is the ones on the stomach. So taking into account this background, how does the physical proportions of an Astartes lie? Broad shoulders, seemingly disproportionately so? The Shoulders do seem to be as much as 1.5 times the width of the waist. An upper torso covered in massive slabs of muscle. Smooth ribcage. A waist seemingly narrower than proportions would to dictate? But also longer than most assume? You can see why I think the art backs my point of view, when you take into account the descriptions of these systems. I never said they were standard body type. No. Seriously, look back over what I wrote. I have been saying the Sibbering type of body is all wrong. And if you read above about armour systems, you will understand why I think not even the fan-made armours for the likes of Skyrim are correct. Once and for all, how are these characteristics that differentiate the male skeleton from the female skeleton Minor? Because I am not getting that. In fact, I have provided evidence to the contrary. Including multiple pictures of very feminine bodybuilders. Because female athletes can be androgynous, but they can also be very feminine. These physical characteristics in a female Astartes would mean they need a re-designed power armour to fit them. As I am saying their physical characteristics fall outside the norm for Male Astartes, and therefore such equipment as power armour won't readily fit them. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, because it doesn't generally affect things like height in 40K.
This discussion belongs in a North Carolina bathroom. Just make sure that you take your birth certificate so that you go into the proper gender one.
This: From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvis#Sexual_dimorphism The pelvis is different between male and female, there fore it affects the way each gender walks, the way they move. Armour would have to take that into account, power armour more so. Women tend to have narrower shoulders than their male counterparts, which would entail another adaption to any armour. The way men urinate is different from the way women urinate, because of the biological difference. So if you are recycling bodily waste, you need some difference there. Certain models of power armour are genderless. Certain ones aren't. Custodes, Astartes, and Sororitas have gender-specific power armour! And there are articles on that. The House Devine ceremonial armour is only worn by one man, Albard Devine. I'm currently reading through Vengeful Spirit, so I'll see if anyone else wears it. Ignatus pattern is used by Inquisitors, Nobles, Rogue Traders, and other agents of the Imperium. Though it is not as durable as Astartes power armour, nor has other benefits of Astartes power armour. It is also usable by both genders. Do Imperial Guard wear Power Armour? I thought they only wore Flak or Carapace armour, both of which are like modern military body armour in which they are generally genderless, but also have a reasonable amount of adjustability. And I reiterate, Pelvis, Shoulders, Ribcage, and Waist. These are different between the sexes. I have provided proof to that. Your point is that geneseed can mutate to the point where it can be implanted into girls, and used the Cursed founding including the Black Dragons to support this. But the background on that founding does not support this. The extreme mutations of that founding led many Chapters to be excommunicated and eradicated. The few acceptable mutations include the Black Dragons own, because it was deemed useful. The entire goal of the project was to produce Primarch-like Astartes. So why would they use girls if all other Astartes were male! When Gene-seed tithe is collected from each Chapter it undergoes rigorous screening for mutation and degeneration. You have Chapters concerned about being excommunicated because of flaws in their geneseed. But luckily most geneseed mutation deals with losing zygotes like the Sus-An Membrane, which does not affect the overall performance of an Astartes. I'm not sure I have the 2004 Chapter Approved, but I found it online. https://www.scribd.com/doc/19454315/Warhammer-40k-Codex-Chapter-Approved-2004 And it reflects the Lexicanum page on them. Skeleton enhanced for Durability and Toughness. But no mention of size increase. So how you got that they have bigger skeletons than normal SM I don't know! There is the Cursed Founding Index Astartes article which does have Astartes of exceptional size, but only three of them. You mean the Obsidian skin that's a fault of the Melanchromic Organ, where Salamanders have normal skintone until exposed to the radiation of their homeworld? The near Albinism of Raven Guard (they do have pigmented hair) that may be because they don't get any sun on Deliverance, and being pale may be their natural complexion? How many BA look exactly like Sanguinius, and how many retain key facial features from their youth? How many Space Wolves are blonde, blue-eyed, stocky, tall, svelte, or just different in looks from Russ? Certain key features of each Astartes is inherited from their Primarch, certain key features aren't, and there are features that may or may not be inherited from the Primarch to some degree. Look at Abaddon and Pasanius Lysane, both are examples of how an Astartes can be tall or broad in comparison to their brothers. In William King's Wolfblade you had Torin and Haegr, the former a foppish SW and the other big and fat. That started out with me asserting that trying to Brute-Force a young girls biochemistry and hormonal balance so they can take Gene-seed would have negative effects and would probably shorten the subjects life. But you thought I was on about something else. My fault for not making myself clear So biology isn't real science? The fact that you need something to turn a human into an Astartes can't be based in science? Gene-seed is far more scientifically credible than how they made Captain America, and uses actual biological processes to make an Astartes. So you can't rewrite that real bit of science to suit your own ends! Those are all individuals suffering from Hyperplasia. What about tall people who don't have that condition? How about Basketball players of the NBA. 7ft 3in to 7ft 7in, 200lbs to 359lbs, and athletes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_players_in_National_Basketball_Association_history Most of those are individual cases, with one on one psychic mindwipes. Besides Molech, there is nothing on such large memory alterations, let alone at the scale you suggest. Make no mistake, we are talking of at least Trillions of minds. Trillions of minds at the same time! Including individuals with the Pariah gene, who automatically cancel out warp-based and psychic powers used against them!
Except they never state that the Emperor actually designed them to be short-lived. There is inferrence that he may have designed them that way, or that he didn't care as they were just a step to creating the Primarchs and the Astartes Legions. And I was mainly focussing on them being an initial and unstable part of that process, which is why I did say that you'd have to go back further to Techno-Barbarians as there may have actually been female ones. (Imagine Amazon-esque Techno-Barbarians!) Sorry. Poor explanation on my part. Hopefully my explanation above is far better. Still have a problem with that 'Genderless' statement. As far as I can tell Astartes are not genderless. In fact their process in creation uses the subjects hormones so they definitely need their male-specific organs. Literally it says in the background that the skeleton gets bigger. I even quoted it. But instead you seem to prefer the artworks interpretation of what that means. Plus I have pointed out that most of the artwork does fully not represent the physical characteristics of an Astartes because of the internal mechanisms and build of power armour. I suppose you want to assert that an Astartes that wears Terminator armour has a head and neck like an Orks! Of course not, because the armour isn't an exact representation of the body underneath, and power armour, though closer to the actual body shape, is the same. I think you are familiar with these. I refer to these for body shape of Astartes. There's a more recent one from this or last year that I believe is good, but I can't find it. Except the background doesn't back that up. You need the gender specific organs as the process to make Astartes, for all intents and purposes, hijacks puberty. And you can't have puberty without gonads or ovaries(?). After they become Astartes is a different matter. I think it might be a good idea to have a look at these, for both of us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato You'd have to make the changes first, causing the damage, then turn them into Astartes. But you don't take weak novices to make into Astartes. You take the strongest and/or the best candidates. How would that include hormonally damaged candidates (with the related conditions such imbalances can create) like you suggest? Would it not also increase the chances of failure to reach full Astartes? So it only indirectly inspired relatively recently. You posted after that video turned up around January sparking off the recent set of debates. I added 2+2 and came up with 5. Sorry about that.
Kinda dropping in out of the blue here, but anyone who wants female SMs can simply play SoB, since they are basically that; female SMs, but made so they don't crap on the lore. Anyone who is not happy with that is a silly person, tbh (and is probably just trying to push his political views instead of actually caring for the game and wanting it to see improved).
I'm saving this thread for future encounters with people who complain about lack of female SMs. Thanks OP!
