A) It has to do with both @GobMaw_HellSmasha's post you were quoting and the one where you agreed with it. B) I wasn't arguing, I was clarifying with appropriate terms. Either you think everything I write is an attack on your position, or more likely I wasn't clear. You mean this bit?: Horus Rising, by Dan Abnett, page 29, Garviel Loken. A description of Loken from Mersadie Oliton's point of view? Which Xenos? There is I believe a RPG rulebook, the background book, the Eisenhorn novel, just pick a few related items which have Xenos in their titles. But it is the model's proportions, which are off anyway, by design. Why else do you get True-Scale and Real-Scale(?) Space Marine models? Yes. I understand that. Though the creators sizing of those images could be off slightly (is a Sororitas in her armour only as tall as Cadian Kasrkin?). I disagree somewhat about the artwork. 40K has always had artists that get it so right, and those that get it so wrong, with most somewhere between. Flexible stomach armour is an example of so wrong. And I've even seen PH armour that looks like Mk VII. And proportions is another with some power armour looking almost like Carapace, whilst others look nearly like Terminator armour in bulkiness. Those can easily work for what I just put. The above power armour model looks like the EC one, which I am on record as arguing that it is wrong in key details. My arguments over the skeleton come down to this. Human skeletons have certain key features which are different between male and female. They are significant enough to allow identification of the sex through cursory examination by someone with reasonable knowledge of human anatomy. These characteristics are far stronger than most ethnic-based skeletal characteristics. The process of turning a normal human into an Astartes enlarges the skeleton, hardens it, and causes the ribcage to form into a protective shell for the internal organs of the upper torso. It does not change any other skeletal characteristics. It is even pointed out that ethnic traits are retained by Astartes. Maybe not all of them, but enough do. So why would ethnic traits of facial bones, and other skeletal based ones, be retained and yet not gender based traits? And that is the crux of the problem I have with people saying a woman put through a successful Astartes process would have the same build and skeletal characteristics as a male Astartes. A Female Astartes would have wider hips, narrower waist, narrower shoulders, and a differently shaped chest to a male one. No it wouldn't alter their ability to wear power armour. After all Custodes, Male and Female members of the Inquisition, and Sororitas all wear power armour. They just don't wear standard Astartes Patterns. With the physical differences between male and female, even if both were Astartes, you'd either have to heavily modify standard SM power armour, or completely redesign significant portions to fit a female. And that includes the waste management and reclamation system in at least one pertinent detail. And where does it say that the body is reshaped to a degree that would remove the female characteristics of the human body? Continued below.
I think the real question GW is asking is "Are people willing to pay loads of $$$ for female space marines TT models? Because we can totally do something about that" Like it or not, it all comes down to money folks.
which was the reason SoB kind of died off wasn't it? Or did it Die off in TT because of lack of support? CONSPIRACY!!!
I addressed this. The Black Dragons have an Ossmodula that overacts in regard to the skeleton, causing survivors of the process to become Astartes to develop those blades. You mean these Sons Of Antaeus? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Antaeus The ones with the mutation that gives them a higher pain threshold and damage tolerance than normal SM? And yes the Primarch of the geneseed does influence the build and development of the resultant Astartes. Influence, but not Dictates. How many Astartes in the HH novels are said to contrast with their Primarchs? How many of the Lunar Wolves aren't 'True-Sons' in their looks? My point was SM combat drugs are specially tailored for Astartes. Give them to someone with a different biochemistry, like a normal human, and you most likely would end up with a range of negative effects, the most probable being death. I'm sorry. But I am obviously not making myself clear. Hormones. If you change the hormones of a human artificially without due care and attention you will make them very ill and most likely shorten their lives. Which is not good for an Astartes. http://www.hormone.org/diseases-and-conditions/hormone-abuse http://www.hormone.org/diseases-and-conditions To create an Astartes you need build from the correct balance of hormones in male biochemistry. If you just alter a woman's or girls biochemistry to match with the male hormones, but not the full biochemistry, you will do harm to that subject and probably shorten their life, even if you successfully change them into Astartes. In order to do it properly you would need to re-engineer the geneseed to work with female biochemistry. 40K maybe Sci-Fi Fantasy, but a lot of it is grounded in real science. Geneseed was Genetically Modifying subjects before GM was even coined. How do you calculate that? You'd need to know how heavy an Astartes is without his equipment. And the compression strength of his altered bones. Namely the Talus bone. The heaviest man known was Jon Brower Minnoch, who was 1,400lbs, or 635 kilos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Brower_Minnoch He was bed ridden due to the effects on him, but he did seem able to walk at lower weights. So if an Astartes weighs as much as a Ton, 2,000lbs, or 910kg, his altered bone structure could still feasibly strong enough to support his weight with out breaking his ankles. But considering that you are most likely to break your Talus under high impact, would the Astartes be able to run? Well Ceramic materials are exceptionally strong in compression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_materials And the 30K/40K counterparts are probably even stronger than modern ones. Mindwipes in 40K seem to be a chemical process that literally wipes everything to do with actual memories (though probably not neuron connections). What you talk about with the Emperor is far subtler and delicate. And needs to be done across a far larger number than at Molech. Like I asked before, at what point does it become unfeasible? I think Molech demonstrates the limits. That seems to only account for the Legions. What about the Mechanicum, who can backup their memory to machines, or the Imperial Army, the Navigators, Sisters Of Silence, Custodes, Arbites, Assassins, etc. What about the Psychic Blanks? Compliance isn't just about conquest. There are times the Imperium turn up and are promptly embraced by a planets inhabitants. Why else have Diplomats? I'm sorry but we must agree to disagree, as I see so many plotholes with this it might as well be a collander for me. No I am not! Not in any way! Deliverance Lost, by Gav Thorpe, page 292. Deliverance Lost, by Gav Thorpe, page 293. A suite. Not half, not even any percentage. And how far back does he have to go to make the changes necessary, and in the subsequent steps, to create a female Astartes? I believe it far easier to start from the basics. Well the Canis Helix dates from when Fenris was first colonised. And that is at least as old as the Dark Age Of Technology if not older. Once again we will have to agree to disagree.
I'm gonna go back and clarify, I think Astartes were all male prior to intiation, because thats what it sounds like in all the source material I have read (I don't think they're really human after anyway, but thats not related). I am simply pointing out that a science advanced enough to be able to turn regular males into Astartes, could reasonably be expected to know how to turn females into Astartes, too (as in, its not that huge a leap from Male biology to Astartes, compared to Human biology to Astartes). The argument that it's too "difficult" because they are female recruits seems so absurd to me, because scientifically Astartes are some of the most absurd things in fiction. Their bones would be brittle from overdeposition ("ceramic" inclusion in the diet or whatever, ok?, the way it is portrayed in writing sounds a lot like ostepetrosis to me), they would crush their own lower limbs under their absurd weight, oxygen/glucose/glycogen transport would make more sense if they were just strapped to a machine and they didnt use kreb's at all (so they could simply utlize type IIb muscle fibers for everything), the fused rib cage would limit movement and breathing (and in the end would do shit all against future weapons so its a complete waste). The Kroot are actually probably closer to what I would think a realistic super-soldier would look like, producing maximum force with a smaller faster target and all that, but the rule of cool states that eating a tank shell without a helmet makes you the strongest. *Men is the traditional plural for for for Man, which isn't actually specific to either sex, so the emperor saying he wants men, isn't as definitive as some might like it to be (the joys of English ambiguity). Either way, at the end of the day, I don't think females are recruited to be Astartes, but if they were I wouldn't have the slightest problem accepting it as cannon as long as the Astartes are still Astartes. No stupid fucking breastplates, no pony tails, just giant genetic post human freaks.
for once in my life i can say i completly agree with mad margos. and my heavy knowlegde in biology just makes me cringe, yeah men and wemon can both be powerfull stong and all that. but men make better soldiers out of basic biology. Women can fight, woman can be tough, they can be surperior. But men make better fighters and soldiers in basic biology. the Imperium has no need for arstartes sex equality, so they wont break their own legs for unnecessary and stupid needs for gender equality in making killing machines. sheesh
My argument is that Astartes aren't men. So it doesnt matter if you start with a human male or female, because once you pump them full of ~~slaneshes dirty~~ the emperor's geneseed or whatever they become something else entirely, so it really doesn't matter if they were male or female to begin with.
arstartes are men. they have an exagerated mans physique. they are all created from men. Arstartes are created from men, couse deep down even an ignorant fool knows that the average man, makes a better fighter than the average woman. Women have alot of things where they are surperior, but being warriors isent one. Arstartes are warriors, and creating a special pogramme to chemmically change girls into boys on an exact genetical level is not in the interest of the Imperium, since gender equality in superhuman killing machines is not a imperium fracturing problem
Having said gene enchanced girls though might have prevented said fracturing or something similar an old hypocritical sidekick once said.
