Alright, recently i've been thinking about a problem: The fact that every few months someone posts a thread questioning or demanding female astartes. It's not just on this forum but also a few others I frequent as well, and it's becoming a little tedious to keep giving the same answers time and time again. As such, i've been putting together a smash-glass-in-case-of-topic type of article, kind of a ready made response to inform people of the subject and the debate. It's not nearly as detailed as it could be - if it were the thing would be approaching at least 12,000 words - but it's just intended to bring up several major subjects in turn, the issues behind them, the key failings and a possible solution.

The original can be found here, but i'm reposting it in this thread for the opinion of regular forum goers, just to see if anyone feels there is a point which could be better expanded upon or delivered on the whole. If you could leave any thoughts on what might be weaknesses or shortcomings, I would greatly appreciate it.

"There are few better ways to drag a forum thread to hell than ardently demanding female space marines around Warhammer veterans. Really, you might as well steal raw meat from lions for all the drama it can (and will) cause. From frustrated players tired of this coming up time and time again, people using it as an platform to bash the hobby with accusations of sexism to copious amounts of Rule 34, the results are truly spectacular. It obviously doesn't help that the subject itself is one massive can of worms, especially when it comes to the questionable science justifying the mono-gendered army.

However, no one sees to fully explain or analyse just why female warriors can't join the ranks of the astartes, or examine what the results would be if they did. Welp, after seeing one too many threads bringing up this very point, it seemed best to finally offer curious folks an answer in full.

Let's start this with the sticking point which so much of this hinged on, a single line from the Index Astartes stating the following: Space Marine implants require the presence of a Y-chromosome to function. It's a key point within the astartes and unfortunately it's one of the lesser moments of that otherwise stellar series, deviling into such dubious biology that it has been questioned time and time again. This has been further expanded upon in some sources in the past to suggest that it is required as the Emperor and primarchs themselves were both male, but even then that's a less than satisfying answer. In many regards it's a downright terrible one.

While this tidbit of lore does supposedly put a stopper on the subject it's almost just hand-waving away any questions rather than delving fully into it. After all, from this we're supposed to believe the Emperor had such masters of genetic weaving under his control that they could create the very primarchs themselves, but could only get a more rudimentary enhancement to bond with half of humanity. Questionable doesn't quite cut it, and it's because of this reason that so many fans seem to keep coming back to this subject, trying to break or alter the canon to suit their needs. A point which is all the more frustrating when there is an equally similar answer which could help to justify such a limitation - Genetic compatibility.

Consider for a moment what an astartes is, really think about it for a moment. Think of the worlds they are taken from, the environments they use as their recruiting grounds and the people the hunt for. In populations of millions - often even billions - they will search for the select few, that small handful of warriors who are bloodthirsty, driven and devoted enough to suit their needs. To find even a dozen among a thousand is considered a small miracle in of itself. These are the kind of recruits Conan the Barbarian would merely be an average Joe among, and the horrific trials intentionally whittle down their numbers until only very best remain.

Once their arduous trials are completed however, then comes the final examination which marks genetic comparability with the primarchs themselves. This isn't simply some test to see if they are strong enough to survive the test, but if they are "genetically pure" enough to match the chapter's own genetic gifts. This isn't down to personal endurance (though that certainly helps), skin colour or even their world of origin but if their very DNA is close enough to accept being the enhancements. This rejection claims nearly as many aspirants as the tests among some chapters, and it can be thrown off thanks to even the most minor deviation. It wouldn't be unreasonable to claim that, in the comparatively primitive M41, gender is something the gene-seed cannot be altered to mix with.

Unlike the previous example, this isn't some minor fact but a major detail which has been brought up time and time again in many books. The Crimson Fists novel Rynn's World does bring up the serious problems of ensuring recruits are a genetic match, and Damnation Crusade cited similar issues. In fact, some stories depict the process as being so problematic that even warriors who have completed the process can be rejected centuries after centuries of service, with Talos Valcoran serving as the poster-boy for such failings. One more base level genetic difference in a recruit could easily throw off the process entirely, and would bar women from ever undergoing the process. It certainly fits better than the excuse introduced in Index Astartes, but even discounting this there are a multitude of other factors to consider, namely the thematic elements of the setting.

Ironically, despite the famed "Grim Darkness of the Far Future" tagline, Warhammer owes so much of its inspiration to past eras, from the Byzantine Empire to the Second World War. When it comes to the warrior monks of the astartes, these tend to focus upon feudal eras, and this is further justified by their recruiting grounds. The likes of Fenris, Sacris, Barbarus, Ithaka and Chogoris all remain trapped in relatively primitive eras where the sword and shield still reigns supreme.

Even those who embrace technology tend to do so only on a relatively limited level, and the likes of Baal or Medusa are more akin to the world Fallout than any truly civilized society. In terms of game design, this allows them to reflect an era of history to give the chapter greater character, and to inspire a breed of warrior who blends the fascination of ancient warfare with future soldier. In universe meanwhile, this is justified thanks to the sheer brutality of these worlds. A planet which forces its inhabitants to constantly risk famine, disease, death and monsters from birth is naturally going to breed better warriors than a tamed one. While there are certainly exceptions, these are few and far between requiring either a militant devotion as found on Macragge or recruiting only the scum of the underhive from hive worlds such as Necromunda.

The obvious problem with using such worlds is that, even if gender was no issue for gene-seed implantation, the majority of their warriors would still be male. Why? Most feudal states favoured males as the dominant gender. While this is certainly not universally true, most societies which favour raw physical strength or prioritizes a warrior caste will usually lead to male leaders dominating it. They will usually be the ones going out on raids, waging war or hunting beasts after all, and it's those qualities which the astartes will ultimately be looking for above all else. In most chapters this would mean recruits would still be largely male save for the odd Brienne of Tarth, meaning comparatively few women would make it to the operating table, survive, and join the chapter itself. The reverse would be true across certain societies of course, but Games Workshop would have relatively few of those to call upon for inspiration. Let's face it, once you tick off the Amazon inspiration, you're left with a few Scythian and Sarmatian concepts and that's about it. Even the most successful ancient matriarchal society - the early Egyptians prior to their conquest from the north - are relatively unknown, and much of its visual distinction is already claimed by the Thousand Sons.

Still, let's discount all of the above. Let's just say that there are no issues standing in the way of female astartes of any kind and they could freely be recruited into any chapter at will. Well, you might be wondering what such a chapter would look like, and you're in luck. There's actually plenty of images which accurately depict exactly what they would look like:



Here's another to back that up:



And here's a really great one depicting what they would look like at close range:



Confused yet? Don't be, because this honestly quite spot on as most depictions would go. If you actually break down what goes into shaping an astartes from beginning to end, you'd realise that physically there would be little to no difference between male and female recruits. Both would lack sexual organs, both would feel no desire for the opposite gender, both would have their bodies coursing with combat enhancing drugs, and both would be so muscular that they could bench press a truck. Their bodies aren't merely enhanced by astartes gene-seed and its organs, but utterly reshaped, and the only difference you might find between recruits would be a slightly different skeletal structure. Well, or possibly physical proportions, it's a bit hard to tell at times and i'd hate to try and justify the awful "chestplate" modifications some people produce.

The line between the two only becomes all the more blurred once you consider the mental training and programming each recruit undertakes. This varies a little from book to book of course, but the general idea is that each new recruit is retrained. Their minds are forcibly programmed with new knowledge, certain character traits are altered and they are mentally redirected to be more disciplined and focused in war. Some take this to extremes, where Nick Kyme's Salamanders books featured recruits who literally could not remember their lives as humans or the Death Spectres where recruits undergo a literal rebirth. It's rare to even find chapters which allow their recruits to retain their human names, as many take on entirely new identities upon joining the chapters ranks, shedding their connection to humanity itself.

While certain distinct qualities would certainly remain, the training regime strips away individual traits in order to make warriors more uniformed. They share the same ideals, act as one in battle, revere their primarch in a way they could not have conceived before and are devoted to waging war in the Emperor's name. Those which tend to stand out the most are born more from their culture than anything else, usually distinct traits from tribes, regions or certain attitudes of older eras, but that's it. If women were to be treated in the same way as men here, that would effectively rob them of the one thing which might truly make them stand out, and each would effectively be indistinguishable from the other.

You see, astartes aren't so much male as genderless. The only thing which tends to make them stand out as "he" is their past lives and the traditions of their homeworlds. Well, that and the fact that calling them "it" just sounds insulting no matter which way you put it. The point is that they are shaped less by their gender than they are tradition and culture, so a female recruited into the Space Wolves would still be loud and boisterous, a female recruited into the Salamanders would still follow Vulkan's teachings and a female recruited into the Imperial Fists would still love fortresses.

Simply put - Altering existing lore to add female marines wouldn't be much of a game changer, and if anything it would only hurt certain aspects of each existing chapter. You would still have the same models, still have largely the same internal lore, still have the same heroes, but it would come at the cost of disconnecting many worlds from the eras they were historically based upon. Please understand, this isn't intended to be sexist, but the moment you reshape the gender roles in a society based upon an ancient era, you lose an already tentative feeling of immersion. Again, half the fun behind the astartes is seeing the ancient past mashed together with the far future, and once you start tweaking with the former, veering it further and further away from its original themes, much of that engagement is lost.

So, with this in mind, why do people keep asking for female astartes anyway? Just about every army in the game already features female heroes or warriors after all. The Tau Empire is noted to have female Fire Warriors (near indistinct from their males in armour no less), the Craftworld and Dark Eldar are the same, orks are genderless, the Imperial Guard recruit both genders (though it is sadly lacking models at that end), the Necron Dynasties have female leaders among them, the Tyranid Hive Fleets are technically matriarchal; the Sororitas are the same, the Mechanicus have both but barely care, the Arbites recruit both genders, and Chaos varies from one group to the next. That's half the game right there, but the problem is that the other half is made up of astartes from both sides.

The astartes - traitor and loyalist alike - are the two most popular factions, the two most well developed and with the richest lore. A single prominent chapter will often feature more detailed lore than another faction's entire armies combined, and each is directly tied to the single most prominent celestial powers in the entire setting. The Horus Heresy itself was fought primarily by astartes legions, and it's the single most important event of the last few thousand years. Plus, even atop of all that, you also have the simple fact that the astartes have the most novels focusing upon their chapters, and spend more time in the spotlght than anyone else. Between that and the less than stellar treatment of the Sororitas by many writers (Chris Wraight, we love your work but please stay far away from them) and it's not hard to see why many would want women among the astartes.

So, after all that let's say someone is still adamantly determined to have a chapter of female recruits. Is there any way to introduce female astartes to the setting without breaking existig lore in half? Actually yes, and it's a relatively simple answer far too many people seem to ignored - The Missing Legions.

Not too long ago we discussed how the legions might have survived into M41, actively serving the Emperor in some secret role. Among the many changes and differing aspects suggested there, players could easily make one or both primarchs female and lead a matriarchal society. This would bypass the aforementioned gene-seed problems - minus the Y chromosome one of course, but most people would forgive you for that - and many of the cultural issues as well. After all, while most primarchs are shaped by their homeworlds, many societies would be rebuilt or altered by them on a path to greatness. It wouldn't be unfeasible to have one such primarch alter the gender roles of their home if they weren't already favouring female warriors; nine foot tall demigods tend to be rather good at getting others to follow their will after all.

Rather than attempting to messily rework an entire existing army, it would be a chance to pick out a distinct number among them, make them female from the start and just go from there, working or altering them however a player wished. With so little about either legion known to the fandom, there's plenty of wiggle room to work around new details, facts and concepts. Hell, if someone was determined enough there's nothing to stop them developing an entirely new spin on an existing culture adapted into another chapter. Is it a long shot? Definitely, but it's the only option which doesn't introduce a lot of major problems. For example, players could attempt to claim that a chapter's gene-seed mutated thanks to being experimented upon during the Cursed Founding, but that would open up a new can of very insulting worms.This way at least offers a natural start, a solid basis to evolve from, a long history to play with, and no sudden, massive alterations to any existing force."

Logic also very reasonable and insightfull explanation, thank you for reposting it, Maybe the ones who always bitc**in' about the topic can see aswell...

It's a fictional universe created by a company, that's why or why not female space marines can exist.

they already have female astartes, the sisters of battle!!! I think that should be good enought, although they are not really genetically modified. But anyways, almost every book series i have read so far has some chicks kicking butt as much, if no more than, the space marines. just my thoughts

Snipped out the lore; I don't see any tasteful way to do this discussion in a Watsonian manner, only a Doylist one. Anyway...

Also ironically, despite the obvious medieval inspirations for Warhammer the universe has never been shy about co-ed inclusion. Eldar and Tau recruit co-ed armies, the Imperium will shove guns into whoever they can find to defend their borders, Chaos doesn't discriminate (and even has a hermaphrodite diety), and the Dark Eldar have had just as many powerful queens as deadly lords.

The message to an enterprising hobbyist is clear: despite the obviously masculine nature of war, the fight for the apocalypse is anything but boys-only

This can also be seen in the Rogue Trader era of the franchise, when there were "female in power armor" models that were very obviously space marine beakie suits. GamesWorkshop has never been shy about representing the ladies. As such, there's no reason to think GamesWorkshop or the writers actually want to tell you "no, you can't have female soldiers representing the astartes

Now as you mentioned, thematically the Spess Mehreens are obviously a throwback to roving bands and fraternities of medieval knights. The sisters are the catholic church, with deliberate focus on the nunneries/convents/missions, given guns. There is an obvious effort to represent all genders. As such, I can't think that GamesWorkshop is trying to alienate anyone by segregating them and are making a judgement call that it makes for stronger lore

And honestly, I do think it is more streamlined and better-written. Female heads poking out of space marine armor, while better for he purpose of egalitarianism, just simply doesn't look as good artistically. It's an artistic statement.

However, this is only a valid defense provided GeeDubs gives the Sisters any actual focus.

The real problem isn't the intent of the writers, but the marketing department. While the writers love to have girls and boys both seeing what might generously be called role models (so to speak), the marketing department only cares about boys. This is the "tradition" of the physical goods market, to not even pretend to care about girls unless it's covered in pink and ribbons

(Why am I talking about "girls and boys" instead of "ladies and gentlemen"? Because I've heard that GeeDubs' marketers have quite literally stopped caring about any demographic other than "rich 12-year-olds")

Female Space Marines = Sisters of Battle.

Look, I know OP wrote a wall of text, but at least look to see if he mentioned the Sororitas

Sorry. Sisters of Battle are your Female Space Marines.

Simple as that. Sisters of Battle are better than Space Marines in my opinion.

The cookie cutter genetically altered freak in power armor is boring. At least Sisters keep their humanity.

Look, I don't think there need to be XX-chromosome marines either, but this isn't another "WHY AREN'T THERE FEMALE MARINES?!" thread, and it would have been respectful to have read that that

In regards to historical immersion, if Fenris is the Viking age IN SPACE, then, culturally speaking, there could definitely be female Vylka (provided we throw out the sketchy 'boys-only' premise).
Half of the bodies buried with weapons in Norse graves are female. Now, we don't HAVE to update the lore just because our understanding of history has improved, but we can't refuse to do so and still claim demihistorical immersion.