I've been thinking about how to frame this for several days, so it's time I just on with it and posted. What do you think are the factional differences that actually make a difference to the outcome of an engagement or even a match? I don't mean what you think is OP, what kills you the most, or even who is at the top of the scoreboard. I'm talking about the things that swing a losing fight to a winning one, or vice versa. Things that may not win a match by themselves, but will make it extremely difficult to win against if you don't counter them. Things that are unique to a faction, that have an actual impact outside of making you yell "that's bullshit!". Let's also put player behaviour aside. "LSM are noobs" isn't very useful feedback. I'm hoping we can give the devs (hello @Oveur @BrentEllison !) some insight into the things that we see making a difference. If you're here to complain about OP classes/weapons, there are plenty of other threads. My personal perspective is from a mostly LSM perspective, so I'm sure I've missed things. The two things I've noticed are: Eldar Swooping Hawks: These are surprisingly accurate at range, and their ability to take up unreachable high ground makes for some horrifyingly effective crossefire, something that Eldar seem to be good at in general. Whenever I've been steamrolled by Eldar, it's been because of this crossfire. It's also interesting to note how many times those Swooping Hawks killing me are Legendary (i.e Elites). For some reason, LSM seems to have trouble actually shooting these guys down. Chaos Sorcerers: setting aside arguments about which healer is objectively better, Chaos seems to field more of them than other factions (except maybe Eldar). When playing as Chaos, I get healed far more often than I do as LSM - not sure if that's due to numbers, willingness to actually heal, or just the ability to heal at range/on the move. My hypothesis is that Sorcerers are more appealing to play, and the ranged heal makes it safer to actually do so. When I've been steamrolled by Chaos, it's most often been due to squads of multiple Sorcerers and Traitor Assaults pushing into point after point, and making it difficult to retake one.
Thing is though, what weapon are they using? Only 2 of them are actually good. For Eldar, I would say their advantage is Fire Dragons. They are the backbone of Eldar teams, because transport control is generally what wins matches.
As a newbie who seems to only manage to do well when playing healers of any factions, here's some thoughs: - It's easier and fun to learn Sorcerer than Apthecary/Pain Boy, mostly because you can heal from a safe distance, even mid-combat. - Their weapons hit hard! - You unlock utility and even offensive powers for him and Warlock. They are a blast to play as, so much fun and it's so easy to heal others and rescue people as then. I wish all factions had access to a psyker with similar skills, not for balance purposes but just on how fun this actually is. Overall I feel that the Apothechary and Pain Boy are a bit scary for newbies (at least they were for me!) but can do something at range as well close range, making them a bit more offensive? I've had success supporting people by fighting alongside them and heal-grenade a group under fire/rescuing people with a full heal. While as Sorcerer I can just stand back and heal them without any pressure.
A someone who splits between LSM and Eldar, and preset Warlock is basically Preset Sorc, it's definitely that "heal on the move" thing combined with having the melee prowess of Ground Assault. Let's be honest, devs: Chainsword Apocs suck and Bolter Apocs are passable. Now combine this with Apothecary healing hitreg still being really annoying, and no way to tether your patient if they don't notice you (or don't care) and keep moving, making Apocs very reliant on their healing grenades/beacons (adding those beacons to the preset was a godsend) Playing LSM medic, so many things can pop up under your feet and make your trip, and your fallbacks are so mediocre. As Sorc (and Warlock), you can just point and click, and your primary fallback, although it's not a ranged weapon, does its job really well
LSM Apothecaries: tacticals that can throw AoE heals that are still semi-broken and buff themselves to survive any one-on-one ranged fight (short of standing in the open engaging heavy weapons, and even then it's not a foregone conclusion), LSM usually fields about 3-4 apothecaries for every tactical that you see. Their healer class can deal consistent, accurate ranged damage at the same rate as a tactical with a bolter, something which sorcerers struggle to do. Additionally, the narthecium can be equipped to kill in 2 fast attack hits, letting the apothecary disengage while the poison finishes off the target; poison delays regen and hits through armor, making it very strong against classes that rely on armor regen to fight. Having most of your non-heavy-weapon ranged damage coming from your healers helps LSM a great deal, although it's troublesome when you get to the cap point with 5 apothecaries, 3 shieldbros, a JPA, and no one can cap.
Well duh. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant to imply "Sorcs focus on/struggle to deal consistent, reliable MELEE damage at the same rate as a ground assault with a power sword" instead
Well duh, I quite specifically said "ranged damage", didn't I? And the post wasn't talking about sorcs, it was talking about apothecaries, so you're just tacking on things that are only tangentially related, if that.
Not sure what weapons they're using - given the effective crossfire and ability to outshoot (HB) me at range, I'm assuming they're using the good ones. Interesting. I'd agree with you on their transport control ability, but I've only felt like they've been the deciding factor in a handful of individual engagements, compared to a more consistent experience with multiple Swooping Hawks or Sorcerers. Also interesting. Perhaps I haven't been paying attention, but I've not been LSM and felt I've won an engagement or match because of Apothecaries, nor been CSM and lost because of them. Perhaps because I haven't seen the kind of ratios you mention. They're definitely strong healers, though, so I'd love to hear more about your experiences with losing/winning due to the influence of Apothecaries.
I've always found that the Apoc is a better healer for defense, while the Sorcerer is better for on-the-go healing and pushing. For the Apoc, all you gotta do is plop down some heal bubbles and you're free to engage/buff your teammates, turning any room into a fortress if you're competent enough and DIDN'T PICK THE FUCKING CHAINSWORD. But Emperor help you if you're pushing, because you have a limited number of grenades and your Narc is unstable at best when it comes to targeting friendlies to heal. The Sorc is better for pushing, because he can lock on his heal beam and/or channel his heal bubble while on the move while the other classes do the dirty work. Plus that Force Sword is no joke if someone gets close. But his lack of ranged weaponry unless kitted out for a specific God and the fact he has to continuously channel his abilities limit his effectiveness on the defense unless there are like 30 of the bastards in one spot. But there's an even bigger problem if you've got 30 Sorcs in one spot.
It's one of the reasons why the PC was so prevalent with Chaos; unless you all the way killed someone on LSM, they could be rezed back to full health and given a HoT buff in 2 seconds. CSM even had a joke for it, saying that the White Scars chapter was attacking with a few advisers from the Imperial Fists. They can chain rez each other in a group which is funny to watch, and the heal nade currently is broken in a few ways I'm not sure was intended. The model is of course tiny, it has about 100 health, the healing aura will go through walls so someone can toss it on a wall from outside a room and stand within the aura inside the room and you can't destroy it from there, AoE and other nades don't harm it, and it can be tossed inside objects/cap points where it's impossible to reach while persisting for 30-45 seconds and leaving the apothecary free to attack or individually heal others. All in all, the class has certainly turned the tide in melee-heavy fights and many encounters overall.
