see in my opinion the trick to using TT as a guide is in the selection of the statistics to use, ignore things like unit point costs and everything to do with turn based behaviour, focus on the range and damage of weapons, the type of movements units can preform, the type of weapons availible to unit types etc, these things can be used to create very rough baselines that EC can then adjust to suit the shooter genre that it inhabits, the stuff that can be used jumps out to me as obvious, the stuff that should be ignored is just as obvious to me
Brent stated "A shuriken catapult should kill a Marine faster than a bolter kills a Marine." Due to our health and armor almost assuredly being lower, I imagine that means if a Tactical and Dire Avenger started firing at each other at the same time and every shot hit, they would kill each other at the same time. That way balance, asymmetric balance, would be achieved and Eldar realize their rolls as glass cannons. That said, if a Dire Avenger got the drop on a Tactical, the Tactical will lose barring poor performance by the avenger and great performance by the Tactical. I cannot wait to see the death dealers that are the Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults.
That's also what I expect. Though because in the reverse situation (Marine getting the jump on the Dire Avenger) the Avenger's chance of survival would be effectively zero if they kill each other at the same rate (because of the lower health the Avenger would be closer to death more quickly - their survivability is in agility), I would expect the Cat to kill the Marine slightly faster than the Bolter can kill the Eldar. Pretty close to what @Zaeryn suggested I should think.
I see it working with the necessary changes to melee, one of the foremost being removing clang for a proper Block. Block should cause both players to recoil based on the weapons used and the type of attack blocked. Spoiler Combat Knife Recoil Modifier is 50% Attack Speed. Chainsword CAS is 0.6-sec. RM is 40% AS. CKnife blocking a Chainsword CA would recoil for 0.3-sec, while the Csword user would only recoil for 0.24-sec. Not a huge advantage but it is supposed to be a small one, which works with others to give the Csword an overall advantage over the CKnife. Block should cost Stamina based on the weapons used and the type of attack blocked. Additionally, Attacks should require Stamina to perform. Holding Block for an extended period(I.E. 0.5-sec) should reduce the player's Move Speed and prevent them from dodging. The MS reduc would clear after Block was released but Dodge would have a short cooldown(I.E. 0.5-sec). Spoiler CKnife(S4) should cost 3.4% Stamina to perform a Basic Attack, while a Csword(S5[+1 for damage purposes]) should cost 4%; however, because the Csword's Strength is 1 higher than the CKnife it not only loses 25% less Stamina blocking its Attacks(-2.6%) but also drains 25% more Stamina from the CKnife's Block(-5%). The Csword would be able to Block 39 CKnife BAs before losing Stamina, while the CKnife would lose Stamina after blocking 20 Csword BAs. Stamina drained after Number of B(asic)A(ttack)s, C(harge)As or D(efensive)B(ashe)s. Combat Knife: 30 BAs, 13 CA/DBs. Chainsword: 25 BAs, 12 CA/DBs. Power Sword: 20 BAs, 9 CA/DBs. Power Axe: 15 BAs, 7 CA/DBs. Power Fist: 10 BAs, 5 CA/DBs. Thunder Hammer: 5 BAs, 3 CA/DBs. Running out of Stamina should reduce the player's Move/Attack Speeds, increase their Dodge cooldown and prevent them from Blocking, with no stun at all. Sprinting would slow, not stop, Stamina regen. After reaching 0 Stamina, it would continually regen until full even if the player was performing Stamina-consuming actions, which could come at reduced cost. Weapons with higher Armor Penetration should be able to deal damage through the Block of a weapon with lower AP. Spoiler CKnife is AP-, while a Power Sword is AP3, meaning the PSword should be able to deal 66.8% of its damage through the CKnife's Block. This simulates the user giving to the blow in order to prevent their weapon from being destroyed. The Melee Meta should be: Basic Attack > Range > Block > Charge Attack > Dodge > Defensive Bash > Basic Attack Spoiler BAs are quick and, like all melee attacks, should not only interrupt the enemy's ranged weapon(based on its firing rate) but also provide 50% ranged damage resistance. Only Heavy Weapons(I.E. Power Axe/Fist/T.Hammer) should have Stun on their Basic Attacks. Ranged weapons should be able to shoot and deal full damage to a player that is blocking without either a Shield or dual melee weapons*. Block should stop all damage from Basic/Charge/Sprint Attacks at the cost of Stamina but D.Bash should be able to break it for an increased Stun Duration. Players should be able to cancel their Attacks via Block, meaning they would be unable to cancel them when out of Stamina. CAs, via the soft lock melee does have and should have refined, should be able to lunge after and hit even a dodging target if aimed properly. Dodge should be the quickest way to avoid a D.Bash. Dodge should provide high damage resistance if dodging away from the source of damage(using two 180-degree targeting arcs) and no resistance if dodging towards the damage source, while also providing a brief(I.E. 0.15-sec) window of Stun Immunity at the start. Players should be able to cancel their D.Bash with Dodge. D.Bash should auto-Block Basic Attacks and then deal a stunning blow with the weapon that is able to break through Block. The Blocks should cost Stamina. *Players dual-wielding melee weapons should be able to Block with them to protect their torso/head, automatically doing so when they Sprint. Attacks against their weapons would drain from their Stamina, while weapons with higher Armor Penetration would be able to deal a percentage of damage through the Block. Eldar vs C/SM melee(to go with the ranged sample up there) Spoiler C/SM Move Speeds Forward: 6-ms Strafe: 5-ms Back-Pedal: 4-ms Sprint: 12-ms Dire Avenger Move Speeds Base / Fleet of Foot Forward: 7.5-ms / 9-ms Strafe: 6-ms / 7.2-ms Back-Pedal: 4-ms / 4.8-ms Sprint: 15-ms / 18-ms SM Combat Knife TTK vs Dire Avenger: 1.8-sec, 6 Basic Attacks, 0.3-sec Attack Speed Eldar Combat Knife TTK vs SM: 2.2-sec, 11 BAs, 0.2-sec AS With greater Move/Attack Speed the DA should be able to avoid/land more attacks than their enemies, keeping them asymmetrically balanced with the Tactical in melee as they are in ranged. The Eldar ranged weapons having the advantage in close range also helps them somewhat in melee, as they can more reliably damage their enemies before engaging in melee combat. In the TT, that cheaper Ork can be upgraded(I.E. 'Eavy Armor) to stand more evenly with units like Astartes. If you want to balance around the TT values you just have to use the TT and common sense. That is exactly how it should be. Bolter TTK vs SM should be: 1.75-sec, 8 Bolts, 0.25-sec Fire Rate vs Dire Avenger should be: 1.25-sec, 6 Bolts Accuracy: 3.4-cm spread at 24-meters Major Damage Drops: 48 and 96-meters D.A.S.Cat TTK vs SM should be: 1.242-sec, 24 Shuriken, 0.054-sec FR Accuracy: 4.5-cm spread at 24-meters Major Damage Drops: 36 and 72-meters While less accurate and of shorter range than the Bolter, the S.Cat's lower recoil and higher FR should give it the advantage in close range and balance the weapons at medium range, while the Bolter should have the advantage at long range.
Those changes make a lot of sense, Zaeryn. Shame that I suspect the 'clang' is here to stay. I think it's a horrible mechanism, personally.
In fact, some Chaos Storm Marines can cap too... if this is a bug or a glitch or a feature, I dont know, but I saw it in serveral matches happen. And I was not allones watching this. @Zaeryn, thanks for your hard work and explaining it into detail. I hope it will help the devs to balance a bit. Beside that, I'm still pretend that the DA needs a bit better damage with his gun.
