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Eldar Melee Damage

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sarise, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. Obbu Obbu Confessor

    I don't want to single you out here (you aren't the only person posting this kind of thing, so it's not really about you personally, bear that in mind)

    But lets clear some stuff up:

    1. Eldar heavy attack speed is problematic for other races, it makes it hard to use the RPS system properly, i can agree with that.
    2. Eldar are not the only race with increased attack speed over other races, orks have it too.
    3. Lunge distance is a complicated issue that is directly related to run speed on all factions. It's not just a cut-and-dry comparison. Yes, it bears investigation, No it does not require immediate normalization without justification.
    4. Eldar have disadvantages baked into many of their classes: we can disagree whether they are enough - but people keep saying "absolutely zero downsides" and that is incorrect.

    Such disadvantages include:
    • toughness ratings below that of basic space marines on many classes... which people keep asking for... its already in game.
    • zero access to impact tiers above swords, meaning we don't win clangs vs other melee, unless we take impact mods which denies us lifesteal.
    And that's only looking at melee.

    There's also:

    • Fire Dragon cannot cap, despite it being comparatively similar to a melta tac
    • Reaper launcher tries to be both plasma cannon and lascannon, but is sub-par compared to both at each individual task
    • Dark Reapers are as god awful at melee as any other heavy-weapon class, and get very little real benefit from 'eldar speed and maneuverability'
    Now, we've also got some toys to make up for it:
    • Speed/Maneuverability
    • Stealth on Striking Scorpion
    • Scream on banshee
    and so on. This is not an exhaustive list.

    I get that people are frustrated. I get that eldar have hit launch in too strong a position, but please either stop making stuff up, or start researching the topic before making such claims.

    If people want to say "The respectably lengthy list of eldar downsides still don't make up for LSM's own, they need to be more severe" that's one thing.

    Pretending the downsides don't exist is another entirely.
    Quag, Sofferenza, Deathmaw and 2 others like this.
  2. Thana Thana Curator

    Soooo much this ^

    Here are some Damage Numbers on Eldar melee patch 1.0.10 - Oct 6 :

    Knife (First number is Charge attack to the back of a Gaunt, second is a Charged attack to the back of a warrior)

    Default Knife 277 / 216
    Damage mod 291 / 227
    Pen Mod 299 / 234
    Seeker Knife 319 / 250

    Banshee & Warlock

    ( First number is [fast attack], then Gaunt Heavy Front / Back attack. single Number is fast attack. Then Warrior)
    Default Blade [113] 192/288 |||| [102] 174/262
    Damage Mod [118] 201/302 |||| [108] 183/275
    Penetra. Mod [113] 192/288 |||| [113] 192/288

    Scorpion

    +Stealth
    Default Blade [97] 166/249 |||| [76] 130/195
    Def +Stealth [146] 249/374 |||| [114] 195/292

    Damage Mod [102] 174/262 |||| [80] 136/205
    Dam +Stealth [154] 262/393 |||| [120] 205/307

    Penetra. Mod [105] 180/270 |||| [82] 140/210
    Pen. +Stealth [158] 270/405 |||| [124] 210/316
    Melee Banner Gives +5.3% damage on Daggers +5.9% on Blades (for Eldar atleast)

    Alright those are Eldar numbers. now for some Videos. Thanks
    @Njord-Halfhand and @Saeritan .


    This Video in particular could be outdated because in the Current patch 1.0.10 - Oct 6 they Worked on Eldar and ork melee animation. If it's changed i'll remove or look for an updated video.


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et8gvtC0THU


    Right, now Distance on attacks, lets start with the Fast attack.


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxEz78_5sSs


    Distance on Heavy attacks.


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2-A1wNRxqI


    And now that attacks are out of the way. We get! the roll / Dodge distance.


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJHVFE9ZZ1g



    @Sarise Yes you are correct on the Eldar strength being weaker and instead of a copy past to all weapon stats all Banshee Power Swords and Eldar Knife Damage could be justified to go down. But then we get into the Lore / Table Top argument and we have to look at what the developers want for game balance.

    Indeed as you said Scorpions should be unchanged in damage, But What do you propose for the Witch Blade then?

    Ohh and for those wondering what a Seeker knife is, here you go
    Seeker Knife.jpg
    NeonWeaver, Deathmaw and Saeritan like this.
  3. Lerdoc Katitof Well-Known Member

    Newsflash:
    ALL eldar melee weapons deal EXACTLY the same damage as their equivalents for ANY other race.

    The ONLY exception is banshee special named sword, which deals LESS damage then any other power sword.
    Cadianmaid likes this.
  4. Obbu Obbu Confessor

    Banshees actually also have one sword (venerable power sword) which does 0 damage, as it simply cannot attack right now, at all :p

    But that's not relevant to balance, it's just bugged :p
  5. LieutenantAstra Cadianmaid Arkhona Vanguard

    LSM unleash the waaaaaaaah.
    Whitefox550 likes this.
  6. Sceviour Sceviour Arkhona Vanguard


    Im an Eldar player and I absolutely hate how Warlocks are built right now. My #1 pet peeve in gaming is when support classes dont actually support but rather go WHAHAGYAFBHEA into the crowd and do the job of other classes. If I had to guess right now Id say at least 90% of Warlock players right now play that damned class as if it was a Scorpion or a Banshee. None of them heal, none of them use protect or that damage booster, they all just go yoloing into the enemy with their sword while ignoring the downed and dying teammates around them.

    Nerf that fucking sword into the ground so that Warlocks can do what they were created to do, HEAL AND SUPPORT
    DrMauf and Sofferenza like this.
  7. LieutenantAstra Cadianmaid Arkhona Vanguard

    QQ Warlocks are Eldar's Sly Marbo lite, as such we're meant to Rambo our way around hacking apart whinemarines :p.
  8. Construct_ Thraxus First Blood!


    I've played this game for. . .

    upload_2016-10-9_9-43-43.png
    . . . a buttload of hours now ^

    I know a thing or two about Melee.

    I'm only interested in ensuring this game succseeds, and nothing else.

    Whats your motive? <- obvious rhetorical question
  9. Fissiccisst Fissiccisst Active Member

    Its not about making Eldar worse, it's about bringing them down to everyone else's level. I mean, if a GA marine could run into a cap point, yell "FOR THE EMPORER" debuffing 6 eldar then proceed to one-shot each in turn hitting them from any angle. Eldar would be pissed too.

    The damage difference here is that the two primary melee classes for eldar both have a natural way to boost their damage to one-shot levels and noone else gets anything close to anything equivalent. (Bashee wail and Scorpion Ambush)

    Damage aside, Eldar also have the ability to hit enemies through other characters because their weapon reach is so huge that you can hit people directly on the other side of others, which noone else can do. Which increases overall brawl effectiveness for Eldar to crazy levels. Every other race that hits a friend in the back just signs their death warrant for the duel they're in. Eldar simply kill their friend's opponent through them while dealing no damage to their friend because melee.

    On top of that, Eldar are also thinner and have a smaller profile. While in direct melee duels this is irrelevant (Unless the duel turns into a pistol shoot off). This makes Eldar nigh impossible to shoot to support an ally entangled in a fight, while simultaneously making it more likely to cause FF, which only makes the Eldar's job easier. This is how 1 eldar clears entire rooms. While you can tell us to "git gud" and aim better it's almost impossible to compensate and aim properly when the lag, the teleporting, the lunge distance, and the small profile are all working against you in tandem.

    There's a talent good melee players have putting their primary target between them and their friends so you can't be shot or melee'd easily by people trying to help them. Eldar simply ignore it, either shooting by because the eldar profile is that small, or just meleeing their friend in the back, which hits the enemy anyway.

    Also, their animations are so fast they can get in more attacks than any other race, which means, while the damage per hit is the same, eldar as a whole get more attacks per second, which further increases the damage they deal with no parity for other races(save ork heavy attack). This also breaks the RPS system because it allows crap like having a fast attack deflected, and following up with a heavy attack that manages to hit before the parry animation finishes, which cancels the parry. Eldar that know how to exploit the RPS system are literally immune to it because they have all the tools to kill anyone trying to play the game properly.

    Finally, 2 of their 3 melee classes start with a default power weapon, and all power weapons have enough penetration to make all toughness irrelevant in regards to overall effective HP and TTK, meaning even the most neophyte player using the default loadouts is a threat to a veteran as his wargear means nothing. This is because melee damage is so high that almost no amount of health will increase the number of hits required to kill someone. So you can't stack health because melee overkills anyway, and you can't stack toughness, because everyone has 140 penetration anyway. While this seems minor, thinking that power weapons are just a measily 10k req away, imagine if all ork sluggas simply started with the electrified choppa, and a shield.

    I understand this last point isn't the players' fault. They're just using what's available to them, but it's just another one of those intangibles people forget about, like having a default anti-vehicle class. While all the newbie orks and marines are running around with 80penetration melee weapons, eldar get their 140s(scorpion being the only exception, but they also get ambush bonuses) with full capabilities to efficiently kill anything on the field regardless of rank and build.
    Kura likes this.
  10. decrease in melee damage??????? friggin eldar can kill a devastator with a knife with 2 fast attacks...but for some odd reason sm get nerfed even more.
    devs lost touch with reality, seriously

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