I suppose the thing to keep in mind is that an "elite" class like that would be much rarer to field, and thus be a bigger target which in itself is balancing. Unless of course you believe it'd be a basic class, it'd then be properly balanced like other basic classes with weaknesses and strengths. Unless of course your argument is that Khornate Berserkers should indeed wreck everything in their path.
No, but between Khornite Bezerkers and Possessed as an Elite, plus a variety of ground assault choices, it's hard to establish Orks as the 'melee' race. In fact I think doing so does a disservice to both factions. I think we need to stop thinking of army niches in terms of range optimization and versatility all together honestly, and think about what a race can mechanically that another race cannot do. Orks might not be able to swarm an actually larger number of players, but you can give the illusion by each Ork squad lead getting a spawn beacon for free and by having a scaling health and damage pool based on the number of orks around them, In this way an Ork faction can emulate a Green Tide without either being cannonfodder or being pigeon holed into a single range of effectiveness. I think Orks as a 'Swarm' race is a MUCH stronger pitch then Orks as a 'Close combat' race, it has more bite and is certainly less bland.
Well we have yet to see what Orkz will bring to the table in terms of melee, so they may end up out-meleeing your Khornate Berzerkers and Possessed, we'll have to see! But I do like the idea of breaking the set "niche's" we're setting these factions into in our minds. Every faction should have it's set of strengths and weaknesses without worrying about encroaching upon another's. Right now we're labeling them as we are for convenience's sake in trying to explain game balance, especially since we don't have all the pieces (as the game isn't even finished yet and Orkz aren't even out) we'll have to see what they cook up for the Orkz.
It'd be kind of weird if they did(Minus Ork Kommandos and Nobs, who should be really good in melee.) it's just i'm mildly concerned because you have to do so many things to make sure the various factions are modelled respectfully and honestly with their lore in mind. To be candid I don't envy the job of making every one of our factions enticing to play.
I think chaos may have some good melee specialist implemented, like the tough plague marine, but on average they'd be roughly equal to orks at melee. Thing is the true flavor of orks is all about number, which means the actual superiority of orks should be in their waaagh effect : - 1v1 chaos v orks should be equal - 5v5 chaos v orks then orks should quite have the upper hand thanks to waaagh raising their damage as resilience, chaos may keep up with a handful of melee specialists (plague marine and the such) unless orks have some melee specialists involved too. I expect some passive mechanics like : - killing an enemy buffs all orks around for a moment with mass killing (nade for example) or a kill streak (several kills made in a matter of secs) giving a better buff - a stormboy jumping nearby buffs all orks around for a moment - painboy being the buffer class - etc... A 10 bunch of orks acting together should be quite a deal to face, serious business beginning at 5 but 2 orks together should benefit of some buffs anyway. In the end, each army will still have its own way : - marines the jack of all trades, meaning they're actually good for nothing - chaos gods save the chaos marines - orks are the most brutal (range or melee)... alltogether (buffs replacing mob effect) - eldars the fastest to hit and run with specialists only
Look here's the thing, all of us ork players enjoy having that sort of fun feeling you can't really get from other factions. Even in game or any sort of lore, we are the fun ones. The marines and eldar get butthurt if they aren't as elite as they should be, and all of the chaos players always just have to be the most evil (no offence to either group). That leaves us to be the fun and wild ones who get to blow up or have crazy contraptions and rules. We get the most freedom in the lore and tactics, but everyone, including ork fans, forget sometimes that we are just as important as the others, even if we have more freedom to do what we want. This often leaves us with the 'short end of the stick', where we are ok with being unbalanced as long as we have as much fun. If we really want to be more serious, I think that we need more threads like the other factions; threads about stats and gameplay ideas where the Devs can really hear us, not just small suggestions lost in the 'what flavor ork are you?' thread. Either way, as long as we have as much fun as the other factions have, da boyz will stil B da best gitz 'round
There's a leader proximity bonus of sorts already in the game they could pretty easily increase/expand that for Orks to simulate some of the benefits of the WAAAGH!! The cool thing would be to create unique progression options for the Orks that reflect the lore. It's commonly accepted the more the Ork Boy wins the stronger they get so eventually that one Ork Boy get is a ten foot tall nearly invincible killing machine. While actually getting bigger in game is probably not a thing some sort of increase in heath(ala MoN etc. ) and melee damage connected to the individuals record would fit the lore, reward loyal Ork players and keep the game unique in the way we hope . Drawing inspiration or outright mechanics from other games is fine but we shouldn't give up on this game being something new and awesome. Both the Xenos factions are worried about the potential "identity crisis" initiated in the name of "balance." Personally I'd rather the Devs take more time, put in more work on the asymmetry, make the game more challenging ( and less cookie cutter). Also, 7th edition says flat out that one basic Ork boy will lose against a single space marine.
Nope, basic orks have a 4+ save (equipped with heavy armor, which arkhona orks will more likely be) whereas sm have a 3+ save with their power armor, which means orks have 50% chances of dying on a hit whereas marines have 33% chances. 17% more of survivability on the field is not that much of a difference, sm are bioengineered but orks are too... They got the same melee attack skill but orks have half the range skill of marines, thus marines should definitely have the upperhand at range, but should be quite in danger at melee for not being that tougher than basic orks. An ork player being decent with the use of the melee mechanics of EC could totally kill a marine 1v1 without breaking codices stats, since TT is all about chances : this is a dice game.
"In the example profiles above, both the Ork and the Space marine have Weapon skill and Toughness of 4, and they both have 1 wound, which is normal for man-sized creatures. The Ork has a higher attack characteristic, representing its greater ferocity in close combat but when it comes to Ballistic Skill, Strength , Initiative, Leadership an Armor Save, the Space Marine is superior. The Space Marine's Ballistic Skill of 4 means that he will hit more often when shooting. In hand-to-hand combat, his greater strength value gives the Space Marine a chance of killing the Ork, and his superior Initiative means that he gets to strike first. The Space Marine has a Leadership of 8, which is slightly higher than average. The Space Marine's Technologically advanced (and thicker) armour give him another marked advantage over the Ork. Obviously, a single Ork is no match for a Space Marine when Fighting one-on-one, but as Orks are inevitably found in large numbers, the still are lethal opponents, even for superhuman Space Marines." Your example is "fixed" to make the BASIC Ork Boy win by giving it extra equipment (at which point it is no longer BASIC) and by making an assumption about EC; we simply don't know if, as others have posted, if they will ignore the TT stats in favor of "balance." However, it's clear that GW envisioned a single BASIC Ork Boy being slightly inferior to a single marine but that the nature of the Ork's way of war evens out those differences.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A-E1RcRvny8 Sure seems like the Orkz can 1v1 in this trailer! Hahahahaha!
