Well I'm officially trolled, because I'm responding. I am not brushing off your arguments. I hear them, I understand them, I pondered them, and then I summarized them to a point because that was a long thing to have in a reply. I recognize your arguments are far more nuanced than that, it's for brevity's sake (of which there will be a stunning lack of in my reply I fear). To clarify, I have no problems with the Long War and Abaddon's/Huron's/Thousand Sons'/*insert favoured chaos champion here* and their vendetta/grudge/war/revenge/freedom fight/jihad/*insert favoured word for righteous cause here* with the Imperium/Slaves/Corrupt bureaucracy/Corpse-God/*insert favoured epithet for enemy here*, even if they are the most reprehensible character just killing people for the kicks. I don't care that people fight each other, My quarrel is not with the institution of war, institutions of war, or war between institutions. My direct and focused target here is the degeneracy inherent to exploitation of another for the explicit purpose of enjoyment at their torment, whether through physiological or psychological means (which has been expanded upon and detailed in an earlier post. although with a loss of clarity for the upkeep of decorum). In regards to the title of this thread, "Do Chaos hurt children/the defenseless?" Yes, they do. And in many cases (to the extent where the group excluded from that generalization may in fact be smaller than the group that is included) they hurt children/the defenseless not for practicality, attrition/psychological warfare, but for the express purpose of tormenting the victims to delight in the sense of power they gain from it. This exceeds (and in many ways violates) the claimed tenants of "might is right" and "survival of the fittest" in that the principle of conservation of force is lost to this excess. For the application of this concept to specific groups, first we must differentiate between two things, the warp and chaos. The warp is a manifestation of all emotions and sentience, chaos is specific to the corrupting and defined chaos gods and their sub-realms. Khorne does not represent the fight or flight reflex, he represents the excess that comes from delight in killing, the bloodlust that comes from unrestrained violence (or perhaps leads to, but that is a different conversation). To put simply, those warbands/cults that delight in torture, rape, and domination beyond their specific goals are specifically what I refer to as evil in this case. For every character riding the chaos train for the conveniance of power/allies/hiding place I personally don't care. They aren't "with" chaos so much as using it (however foolishly that may end for them). This refers specifically to those who engage in chaos. As for the role of humanity in the formulation of chaos/evil/whatever, I'm unsure why you think this is relevant. People are terrible, quite often. That is not blanket approval for terrible acts, it is perhaps a call to act, but that is something for you to reflect on, not for me to berate you about, especially as it exceeds the scope of an online forum. This is off-topic, but it's brought up enough I figured I'd address it. I'm not on the Imperium's side. I recognize them as a pseudo-religioius fascist organization, and even during the Great Crusade I hold to that (humanity as a religion, as flawed as it's gods). I recognize the implicit and explicit hypocrisy in the Imperium and it's existence. I see Milgram's experiment toted above, and I find that amusing when it's being held by someone supporting a faction spurred on to ever greater feats of excess and violence by psychologically-formed gods. If you need an example of authoritarian pressure and support, there it is (as well as an amusing thought experiment for reinforced behaviour. The things you do shape your gods, who then encourage you to do those thing). So pleading the Imperium as your defense is meaningless, because I'm not supporting the Imperium. Providing stalwart examples who aren't sadists from among the chaos champions is also irrelevant to me, because I'm not arguing for every individual (and indeed specifically excluding those who have stated goals, no matter how petty they are). My argument lies solely against the mass of chaos that works to further their own horrific delights. For which I can hardly go more specific than to talk of the most abstract portion of chaos, the daemons. You have entire hordes of armies, who upon being unleashed upon the material realm, will actively seek out anything they can to horribly torment it, solely for their pleasure. This is everything I am talking about, summed up in the apex of chaos. To conclude, I'd like to say I'm not attacking chaos as a faction to play. I don't care if you are only chaos so as to fight the evil is the Imperium, or because you do in fact get excited by hurting people. I'm also playing chaos (if only because they are the smaller faction and that is where quickplay sends me) and I find you a great community to play with. I just got irked when I heard a faction that rapes people horribly for the kicks of it is described as nonevil. And to clarify, I'm aware that in the Imperium they also do that, but they don't promote it as a way to spend an evening (and in real life, every society that does promote things like that should be burnt to the ground). Still not on the Imperium's side, this is just why I chimed in. Cheerio.
Trolling you was never the intention, so apologies if that's how it came across. Perhaps rather ironically, the three of us seem to agree on many of the most critical points in the discussion, namely: Evil can loosely be defined as causing harm or detriment to others in pursuit of your own enjoyment or gain Chaos as a concept/ideology, the Warp, Daemons and the "Forces of Chaos" are all distinctly different things The Warp is not inherently evil The Forces of Chaos are not composed solely of 'evil people', or people who gleefully commit evil acts Under any rational definition, the Imperium is not 'good' and it's viewpoint is fundamentally biased Chaos does hurt children/the defenceless Where we differ appears to be the following. Chaos and the Dark Gods are not the same thing The Forces of Chaos are not inherently evil Daemons are not inherently evil Chaos as a concept/ideology is not inherently evil Chaos does not define itself by reference to evil Chaos' view of its own morality is relevant Comparing Chaos to the morality of other 40k entities provides relevant context Comparing the morality of 40k to our own morality provides relevant context Conclusion: Chaos as a faction is amoral rather than evil, even if evil acts are committed in its name I'd like to make it clear I don't intend to brush off your arguments either. I think our points of disagreement seem to hinge on where exactly we, personally, draw the line in defining what Chaos represents from this perspective, and where we draw the line in attributing responsibility or accountability for the evil actions committed under whatever we've defined Chaos as being. I'll try to summarise my reasoning on the key disputed areas below, if that's useful... Chaos itself is a concept - the antithesis of order and rigid stasis. It represents opportunity, ambition, destruction, rebirth and renewal. It has no particular guiding principle or aim except that those of strong will should be free to shape their own destiny, that it abhors stability and stagnation, and that it cares nothing for any arbitrary heirarchy or rules. The only heirarchies that form within Chaos are those where weaker willed individuals choose to, or are forced to, submit to the will of the strong. Such heirarchies only ever last as long as the strength of the strongest individual and the loyalty they command, and will not last forever unchanged...Chaos, after all, abhors stability. The Dark Gods are manifestations of the strongest, most violent emotions poured into the Warp and birthed through unusually resonant events in reality. They have a form of sentience on a colossal, almost unimaginable scale, and pursue their own agendas, rewarding those whose actions reflect their own nature in their particular unique ways. In some senses, the Dark Gods form a guiding force for the actions of the Forces of Chaos, although the most powerful of the Forces of Chaos, the Traitor Marines, for the most part follow their own agendas, which do not necessarily align with those of any specific Dark God or the Forces of Chaos as a whole. That the Forces of Chaos are attractive to those who enjoy evil acts is unsurprising. If you, as an individual, got a kick out of murdering people then having the Dark Gods as patrons, who would reward you doing so in ways that resonate with their natures, will be a darn sight more personally satisfying than having the Imperium as a patron, who would (generally) be looking to execute you for it unless you're only murdering the correct people. However, the overwhelming majority of people embracing chaos don't appear to do so because they delight in evil. In many cases, it appears as more of a journey between the way they had been thinking and the way they now think, which may or may not be influenced by the Dark Gods but is, fundamentally, influenced by the concept of Chaos. To please the Dark Gods without conduting evil is entirely possible. A contest of willing gladiators fighting to the last man, an orgy of ridiculous proportions, converting a fatal disease into a chronic one through medicinal arts, and executing elaborate schemes and plots of one-upmanship would all please the Dark Gods and not require any acts of evil. Of course, this is definitively harder than going out and murdering someone in a way that's pleasing simply because you can, and the easier more evil path is often better aligned to the military aims of the Forces of Chaos. The Dark Gods encourage either - and they simply don't care which the multitudes in the Forces of Chaos choose to do, or even if they choose to do none at all (although it's rare that this would ever be rewarded). This is one of the main distinctions between Chaos and the Imperium, or the Eldar, or the Tau. All commit clear acts of evil, particularly on those not of their own, most justify those actions as a necessary or useful step in pursuit of a greater good, and none of them particularly care what anyone who has a different perspective thinks - particularly not if that person isn't one of their own. Chaos sits in a more grey area because it and its followers don't tend to have any regrets about this, or any discomfort at the idea that people conducting the act may get enjoyment from it as opposed to seeing it purely as an act of duty - as previously stated, it's an amoral concept that cares little for rules and codes of conduct laid down by others. However, that merely brings them closer to the perspective of the Orks, Necrons and Tyranids who similarly have no well-defined concept of good or evil, as the labels don't naturally apply to their motivations or the way that they think. If Chaos is to be called inherently evil for the actions of its followers, it's next to impossible not to define all major 40k factions as inherently evil - an entirely valid view, but not normally one held by people making that particular argument. In short, people loosely united under the label of "Chaos" commit a feth-load of evil actions, often in a classically evil way. But that's not because Chaos itself is fundamentally and inherently evil, it's just that the ideology is more attractive to evil-doers and places no moral or physical barriers in the way that would discourage acts of evil.
I had a brief arguement in the Nightlords thread that pretty much went that way. Basically. Dude: "Oh the night lords are misunderstood they see how corrupt the imperium is they are really noble!" Me: "Hahahahaha no we aren't we're mostly pirates and criminals who just enjoy fighting and killing." Dude: "Blarghfargl" Me: "Some very few might still have that noble crap going on, but no, for the most part we just enjoy it. Embrace it! It's who we are."
Apologies for the troll comment, I don't think you're trolling me. It's a self-conceit I use to keep from being emotionally invested (the easiest person to troll is such) and having it there keeps me with the mantra, "it's just the internet, it's just the internet." I think this will be a wrap up post (at least for me), we've reached an equilibrium where we understand each other's opinions, and even if we can't come to a resolution on the larger issues, we at least have a consensus on what the issues are. Contention on your first point, "Evil can loosely be defined as causing harm or detriment to others in pursuit of your own enjoyment or gain." Harm and detriment will happen in any competition or conflict between individuals or factions, and I by no means think I have the right to judicate on the morality, practicality, or necessity of any action between two opposed parties. Except for when they do it for no tactical reason and just to enjoy it. I'm (in regards to this conversation) ok with civilians getting hit in the line of fire, deeply unsettling terror attacks, and even potentially using a population to make drugs I know that last one is a contentious point. If the third legion is using the Terran population solely for their chemicals, then it's "ok", but if the drugs are better because of the (emotional) tears that go into it, it's probably not. That's not to say I condone anything, but I won't outright condemn it as evil. Anyways, I find that you thinking chaos and the chaos gods (or dark gods) are different is interesting, and I'll look into it to see if I missed something there. I think there's a line between evil and "bad" and while I wouldn't discount any faction in 40k from being the wrong side, I think from an out of universe context (ie the reader) where we are not forced to choose a faction (because we're not actually in the universe) an argument can be made for chaos being evil (which I've done, although like all great internet debates I think both sides could bring several hundred pages of topic to work through) but I can respect not agreeing to that. And yes, many of the chaos champions are not included in the list of evil by intent. So good times were had. I'm out of time now, apologies for the rushed dialogue. Edit: Before this goes on, I really don't think anyone was trolling me. The troll comment is totally a self-comment to myself. Being emotionally invested in things isn't helpful to a debate, so I throw it in there at the top so when I review it, I am calm and collected. Chaos is a great faction, with many nuances and I love playing with you guys.
I dont nececraly kill civilians, seeing them squirm in fear is pleasing enought. Then again flailing a father while his children are watching is also very amusing. OH, SO MANY GLORIUS CHOICES!!!
QUOTE But in regards to real life, I look at Subjectivism and see danger. I'd suggest reading CS Lewis "The Poison of Subjectivism" and see his arguments for objective standards of good and evil. Also, if that essay caught your interest, "The Abolition of Man" is also a good one on objective morals. QUOTE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I disagree. We all are mere meaningless groups of athoms. Life ''happened'' here as it did somewhere else. All forms of life we know are just mutations that try to survive as long as possible, and since we are so pitiful in our meaningless little time inside the Universe, we at least make our DNA live inside a new organism, in the eternal attempt to be better and better in surviving I value Mankind as a whole because evolution brought us our intelligence, that allows us to have some form of control over things and hope for future, given by science. However a single human is meaningless for there will surely be another like him to contribute in a good way to our development. Even Einstein was a man; if it was not him, there would have been another sooner or later. Society must punish murders, rapes and all the bad stuff because in that way it's trying to make our organization work, and we do it because we discovered that we have more results if we work together. But ''justice'' has no value per-se... of course the masses must believe that justice exists, or it would be chaos. But for those few smart enough it's not necessary. As long as none of them gets in the way of Mankind as a whole and its future... everything is permitted, since in the end we all are just mere groups of athoms that ''happened''.
One, that's from February, way long ago. Two, why? It's a brief dip in admiration for CS Lewis and then drops straight into a collective transhumanism spiel that fails to assert an argument in the conversation and which runs counter to your first statement on the danger of Subjectivism. Really, why?
Chaos does not concern itself with notions of good or evil. Only what is, what isn't, or what must be. Chaos is raw emotion and the wholehearted commitment to those emotions in whatever form they should take on an individual basis. A daemon which spills blood does so only because it is the extreme manifestation of that aspect of human nature. A daemon which indulges in the most hedonistic practices of sado-masochism does so only because it is the extreme manifestation of that aspect of human nature. A daemon which schemes and plans in the most selfish ways for nothing other than the simple joy of stabbing you in the back does so only because it is the extreme manifestation of that aspect of human nature. A daemon which embodies despair and horror of the inevitable rot and decay that follows all life is so only because it the extreme manifestation of that aspect of human nature. In short. Chaos doesn't care. Chaos simply is as it all already exists. EDIT: Daemons are also all manifestations of the hubris of sentient beings. That hubris being that a daemon considers itself superior to mortals, when in fact, they are merely biproducts of the extreme psychic presence of those mortal species' in the warp.
