Alright i have to say in lore, and in strategy the jump pack assault is my bae. I love it so much i play jump pack assault dark angels in Deathwatch no seriously i do .... I incorporate them into the TT wargame as much as i can i like aggressive shock and awe strategies, i frequently play flush roles in other shooters and similar properties. Its as they say "How i roll". I have to say all the way through development i have very frequently asked myself a very important question ... What is bE using for a role for the "Jump Pack assault marine". are they to feel like assassins ? where they get in ruin someones day and leave ? are they disruption ? do they make such a fuss when they show up the shooters cant shoot ? or are they front line infantry meant for flush tactics and the actual taking of ground ? the answer ive come up with .... i have absolutely no idea they seem on the surface to cover none of these roles especially right now in the present patch lets get to the play by play of their load outs, and i cant tell where they are going with it. Chainsword + Bolt pistol + as tanky as we can get. Defense is so freaking expensive for nothing ... the chainsword is a very fast attacking weapon with probably more damage than it should have, the bolt pistol is much better now that rapid fire weapons are working more as intended but the fact that you can blow most of your points on toughness and not break over the lowest pen weapons pen rating really hits you right in the rustled jimmies. On the bright side no one else has any effective toughness either so you are penning everything they have too .... they just get to pen you first from ranged so you dont ussually get to attack them. Power sword + bolt pistol/plasma pistol + survival for whats left. i consider this probably the "well rounded" loadout the power sword seems to perform well outside the bugs that are presently affecting melee all around, the plasma pistol much like the tactical variant can make you often times forget you are playing an assault as opposed to a plasma weapon with legs and hampster hands. any survival points leftover are essentially wasted as they do nothing significant for you. Axe/mace + bolt pistol + survival for whats left. Should be a slightly heavier damage dealing loadout but it actually still seems to be under dpsing the power sword since the power sword can swing so much faster i feel the axe/mace might be better served being a bit slower and a bit more damagy/forcy to emulate the "unbalanced" quality better Power fist + jack all nothing left I have really mixed feelings on the power fist ... just a patch ago it was fists everywhere for good reason one power attack = one kill for your scoreboard .... i might not agree but i can see why it was nerfed i generally never had trouble when fighting awares against a power fist just avoiding it and the same happened to me several times when i had the fist as well. What really bothers me is that in the present patch it is very expensive, and its specifically a antitank weapon however if you try to "Fist" an operated tank you will very rarely get more than one attack in and that one attack does way less than far less risky options. I still advocate the "mount the tank" strategy to balance this so the power fist melee stats don't effect its tank killing balance. Agility(all the fuel and fuel regen i can get) Ultimately having fuel means you are using the chain sword and the bolt pistol and you have no "not worth it defensive" stats. and the review is much the same as the tanky build but you probably survive longer than the tank build because the best current defensive stat is by far not getting shot. What are my issues with JPA ? lets start with ui/control/role issues. Assault "slam" at present i find this skill very unrewarding, when you assault slam you pause in midair which flak cannons, snipers, heavy bolters, etc. make short work of then after you have crossed a bullet ridden field jumped and aimed the godawful targeting of the assault jump, survived all the midair fire while you pause to paint your nails in midair you are rewarded with a large aoe regular hit ..... daaaaafugly ? I think on the whole you should have a descending weak attack and a descending strong attack and once you've hit attack the person in the retical is in "lockon" status like the smart pistol the quick attack doesn't disrupt the motion like a midair skate it automatically guides you at them as you already "hit" them back when you aimed and clicked the retical they can still stop it from tracking effectively if they dodge roll in the last few moments of the incoming attack. Secondly the "fierce" jpa attack starts looking the same as the quick attack but as you hold the button your character body language moves to a much more aggressive stance that will have recovery time after the impact and doesnt track as well and is easier to dodge. Don't show the opponent the retical in either case. in both cases the "midair charge up" needs to go it needs to be more fluid movement. As to its effect(strong attack) i think there is a lot of options, you could take the damage up but make it so after you impact you don't have enough recovery time and survivors(dodgers/heavies) can then punish you(this works if we are going for a HW/sniper assassin role). You could also Take the damage down a lot and instead have the impact throw people from the impact zone and max their retical spread with the suppression movement debuff with a quick recovery that puts you up first so you can close the gap and they should recover to neutral as you are attacking your target but the suppression and retical penalty can lag a bit give you those precious few seconds to single out a target.(this fits the "shock and awe" disruption role) Also making it less viable to shoot you in a melee as with the retical spread they are more likely to wing allies, engendering them to enter melee to fight you off so you do your job of stopping the shooting in that area when you engage. Conversely you could have the impact give anyone in the zone a serious suppression debuff or the grenade noise and disorientation effect and leave the damage much the same bring both assault and victims back to neutral simultaneously but leave the suppression effect on for a few more seconds making it harder for nearby players to shoot the assault briefly. (this fits the front line troops flush tactics take ground feel). Which will also force them to melee you for a few seconds as running isnt an option at first. Next category missing items. I know this is going to be controversial to the TT war game guys but hear me out ... we have already broken what we give to squads in multiple occasions and whats available on the field .... Second the codex asartes states and was meant by its creator to not be the end all be all of "how" space marines fight but a very full and complete guide to the "best and well known" strategies. Third we have to acknowledge a good piece of our fanbase that may or may not be interested in the game will come from relics space marine and DOW franchises ... they were both really big sellers and i honestly believe for very good reason. Assaults as in all three of their proposed roles assaults use aggressive CqC themed weapons, right now that means melee only. what that means is if melee isn't working which it rarely is assaults are either unviable or OP depending on the state of melee. right now melee is a mess just as an example i encountered the same bug i complained about a week ago last night i detected an eldar scorpion and back pedaled firing plasma pistol at him he quick attacks the space i used to be standing because i jetted back he then makes a quick attack animation that closes half the distance and I EXPLODE into tiny bits with the melee weapon showing as my CoD, i then later in the same match had a probably 30s-1m long clang and dpbash war with a swooping hawk that i hit probably three different times with the power sword when i out juked him but he seemed to take 0 damage and just eventually flew away. I'm not going into real depth on the melee systems woes right now its another topic sufficed to say most are not happy with its present incarnation. DIVORCE ASSAULT FROM MELEE. I can't stress this enough if you were on the front lines and you wanted a tank dead you would hand a melta bomb to a JPA, you would hand them a Melta, you would wish the power fist worked right on vehicles .... In CqC you need options and since pen is greater than defense for LP efficiency by a whole lot right now you basically cant make yourself more survivable without tremendous cost nor is there much point than choosing the fastest weapon that "pens everything"(power sword) assault needs assault minded firearms im sorry, it just does for balance, for less rage induction when the melee system is tweaked, for more enjoyment of the class ... we just need it and so does chaos. Asartes Shotgun :: Low pen(0) wide spread low damage per pellet an 8 shot cartridge long reload time like the storm bolter or maybe longer. mod able for more pen(half botler), more/less spread, or higher pen(3/4 bolter) and no spread with less RoF(slugs). bayonet/enhanced stock. i would like to emphasize that this weapon should not be a 1 shot kill it should be more in the 3-4 center of mass variety with fairly fast semi auto fire at default but the reason it should do lower damage is its non existent pen so on light toughness targets it has a chance to shine. this weapon would certainly be easier to balance with the dual linear pen vs. toughness damage formula i have suggested before as people could literally toughness to the point this would show the shield icon and not harm them. Melta Rifle :: other tank hunting option especially if we aren't going to "mount the tank" or give meltas or make the fist viable. Bolter :: Starts more cqc oriented than the place the tacticals modding can reach towards CqC, higher rof, more spread/less movement penalty, no scope etc. and can only barely be modded towards ranged accuracy. but never crosses to a normal bolter for specs it should always remain operating range shorter than the tactical, and its mods should be themed towards CqC like dragon breath rounds or something. Flamers :: If we can ... i've heard and can agree with the performance issues trying to put flamers in could cause and i don't think this is a very good suggestion but for fluff and flavor would be nice. Smoke grenades, Stun grenades, that the assault is more or less immune to as an additional shock and awe or disruption tactic allow them to thrown them as they land as an alternative to reworking the assault jump attack. the option to take more than one grenade(maybe up to 3 for cover deny) Make a single burst of the jump pack able to crest the higher walls so we can engage defenders from odd angles and under/around fire arcs. They need a survive ability/role mechanic built into their class .... Either through a well landed assault jump, or by landing hits(i didn't actually like this but it fits for khorne), or by base stats in the load out screen(our default gear and upgrades costs more anyway we have less to spend less flexibility than most other classes, some items are actually not affordable at all in realistic terms). and for fun and flavor stuff ide like to see. Dual wielding melee weapons, dual wielding bolt pistols, dual wielding plasma pistols, Thunder/daemon hammer(two handed), Dark angels claymore(two handed), ceremonial sword(one handed/dual wield), wielding any other existing weapon with an offhand combat knife.
I feel like a lot of what you suggested has been in the game at some point (minus the ranged weapons [it was confirmed that they won't get ranged as primary weapons before, but who knows] and dual wielding). Assaults used to be able to gain life through melee attacks when using the chainsword to increase survivability. This was pre-loadout when they had no options on how much life/armor they had. They became a bit too strong from it. The slam also used to do more damage. While it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue now, it was a serious problem back then. Slam spam was essentially the way to play the assault for a while because it was so efficient at killing people. That's why the height requirement was added. Also, the pause on the slam is only noticeable when using the fist because the fist's slam is so much more powerful. I'd also suggest manually aiming rather than using lock-on. Most of the issues I have with assaults come from the mechanics of melee itself. They're highly mobile harassers in this game. You pick off 1-2 stragglers or get the attention of a small group of enemies and run away while your team moves in to kill them. It's hard to do this when melee doesn't work consistently and when some of the weapons (chain weapons mostly) are underwhelming when compared to the power weapons.
Oh god, if we gave Melta bombs AND Meltas to JPA's vehicles would be extinct and no one would use Heavy Weapons designed for anti-vehicle purposes.
i think vehicles in general need to be sturdier .... i would prefer the fist be viable over the other choices .. but melta bombs is actually in several sources as assault deploy able. the balance of vehicle lifespan is a separate issue from assault having options to handle it .... and yeah TTL for vehicles that aren't the eldar death machine are too low. in the present state of the game an assault killing a tank is committing suicide to even try and will die even if by rainbows and fairy farts he succeeds. At least with melta bombs he could jump in range plant and leave ... and even if the meltas get nerfed some or tanks get sturdier if they are easier to apply like that i think it would be fine. I think your underestimating how hard it is to actually get within range of most vehicles as a melee character and how prevalent becoming roadkill to something driving at 20 mph is. It would be a lot more realistic if you got tossed aside and took light damage when rammed by most of the vehicles in the game .... It would be a lot more exiting thematically if we could assault jump on top of a tank and cling to it and attack it. you gotta keep in mind meltas cost LP too and JPA's basically dont have any LP .... so if you take a meltabomb you aren't going to be able to afford a meltagun let alone anything but a chainsword and cardboard armor. plus in that case of them having a melta gun you have an excuse to give them lesser melee options like a regular sword to save points ....so they are committing to tank hunting if they are doing it.
yeah its major problems are linked to melee ... i agree and as you noticed i didn't actually like the attacking buff, i think there is better ways to implement survive ability and how depends on what role we really want them to have .... what is their purpose ? if its as an assassin to entrenched forces ... they need more damage but no ability to sustain it past a few short seconds of engagement, if its as shock and awe their damage actually needs to come down but the effect they have on the field in debuffs and general flustercluckery needs to go up, and if they are supposed to be the ones actually TAKING the ground via flush they need more stable mechanics that can be relied upon. Right now they feel very much like tacticals without ranged weapons as opposed to "assaults" If we want them tank hunting we need to decide "How" we want them tank hunting .... because trying to simultaneously balance the power fist for melee and vehicle fighting is proving time and time again to be a nightmare. also theres not much reason to use anything higher than the power sword unless you go all the way to power fist since no one can afford any toughness of note. the sword has enough pen your basically doing full damage against everyone, the chainsword is actually quite good its per hit is low but its so fast its power attacks are as fast as most other weapons quick attack.
Devastator is tonights run, then apothacary, then i will likely do the outlyer items/weapons for chaos on sunday.
