I'm a recent returner to the game, so I've been digging up as much information as I can to reacquaint myself. As some of you may have seen in GD, there's a lovely spreadsheet containing real-terms TTK numbers using realistic sample builds.

Looking purely at Bolters, Shootas and ASCs, this is the extracted TTK data as relevant to the Dire Avenger

DA vs Tac : 1̶.̶5̶2̶ ̶v̶s̶ ̶1̶.̶4̶4̶ _______ 1.36 vs 1.08
DA vs Shoota : 1̶.̶7̶6̶ ̶v̶s̶ ̶1̶.̶2̶5̶ _____ 1.60 vs 1.00
DA vs TraMoN: 1̶.̶8̶4̶ ̶v̶s̶ ̶1̶.̶4̶4̶ ____ 1.68 vs 1.08
DA vs TraMoS: 1̶.̶5̶2̶ ̶v̶s̶ ̶1̶.̶4̶4̶ _____ 1.36 vs 1.08
DA vs TraMoT: 1̶.̶2̶8̶ ̶v̶s̶ ̶1̶.̶4̶4̶ _____ 1.12 vs 1.08

We o̶n̶l̶y̶ don't even have a TTK advantage against Traitors with a Mark of Tzeentch (̶I̶ ̶g̶u̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶u̶m̶o̶u̶r̶)̶ and have a full 0̶.̶5̶1̶s̶ 0.60s deficit against Shootas - which is only amplified when you consider their reduced headshot damage thing.

What, exactly, are we supposed to be getting for a 0̶.̶5̶1̶s̶ 0.60s TTK disadvantage in a <2.0s TTK game?

Our hitboxes aren't that meaningful an issue, especially not at the ASC's optimal range (these TTKs obviously get worse as you get outside 12.5m). We're also not that much faster, and our speed largely benefits our melee classes in anycase. Never mind the WAAAGH making in the Shootas in question just as fast when/if it ticks.

So... what, exactly, are we paying this TTK tax for, even in theory?

Note: This isn't a whine, I am aware that this is a fairly recent patch in it's first pass. I'm also genuinely curious as to whether there is some factor that I have forgotten or has been changed in my absence that makes these numbers make sense.

Edit: Apparently there's a small issue with the source spreadsheet that will change these figures, I'll update this as appropriate once the source has been.

Edit2: This is the thread containing the source numbers, compiled by @Slough_Monster

Edit3: The source has not yet been updated, but I've modified a local copy - hopefully correctly, do not blame the author if my numbers are wrong - because it's a bit awkward to talk about hard numbers without hard numbers. And yeah. It's even worse. Even the don't-even-laugh-it's-not-a-funny-joke-guys Mark Of Tzeentical has a (very minor, wouldn't be worth comment if MoT wasn't so incredibly bad) TTK advantage over us. We have to overcome a 0.22s deficit against a Tactical - that's 16% of their TTK. It takes us 160% as long to kill a Shoota as it does for a Shoota to kill us. 160%

Edit4: Update. According to the corrected numbers a DA has a 1.04s TTK against a Shoota with a 100% headshot rate. The 1.0s TTK of a Shoota vs a DA is, of course, all bodyshots.

We can plant every bullet in their head, and unless they miss our entire hitbox, they still win the race.

Although as I just started playing about a week ago with the f2p, I ended buying the game cause I liked it enough despite choosing Eldar. It's a challenge for sure, but at times they feel stupidly weak and out gunned.

If I'm looking over a railing and a marine comes from behind you almost are instant killed.

If I come up on a marine looking over a railing and I open up with my ASC, it feels like they have so much more time to react.

I think the idea the dev's had in mind is 100% uptime on Enhance because that's the only excuse I can come up with for the state of the Dire Avenger vs Tacs or Shootas. (and I still think it's a poor one)

I mean.. who designs a game with a fairly short ranged gun than designs it so that it's carrier will always loose vs your standard rifles at it's shorter range and beyond?

And you know what while we're at it.. why does the ASC have such piss range? TT it's 18 inches vs 24 on Bolters which is 75% of the range, but in EC it's 12.5m vs 30m or 41% of the range.. what gives with that?

You probably don't want to see the TTK numbers for the ASC versus Bolter when both at maximum range.

It's uncomfortable reading for Eldar.

@Gaan_Cathal Could you advise what source you're using?

Is it the one by @Slough_Monster ?

(Edit: linking you in this, Slough, in case this is your sheet and the 'small issue' mentioned above isn't one you're already aware of)

Oh, crap. Credited in the other post I mentioned the TTKs in and completely missed not having done so in this one. My bad. It is that sheet, and they are aware (because that's how I'm aware).

My own personal opinion- The ASC is balanced around the idea that a DA will dictate the terms of a fight.

This is mediated entirely on increased foot speed. Expect to always be the aggressor, even on defense. Push out from points, circle the area, control your corners, blitzkrieg.

And I mean real blitzkrieg. Hit hard, if you can't break it, move on, ping it for a DR or wait for more light eldar to encircle them.

Only ever engage at your advantage. Don't be caught out of cover. Don't let them have cover against you. Be mobile when hunted, be patient when hunting. Don't be predictable, take long routes that surprise them.

This is my opinion. It has worked well enough for me in the past. If you feel that 1.15 walk and 1.33 sprint speed are not enough to accomplish this, then you will always be playing DA at a disadvantage. You lose the straight dps race, have shorter range, a wider spread to counter a narrow hitbox, and no alternative gear. You have speed, so use it get into the best position you can.

And feel free to disagree. That's cool.

At first I was ok with the reduced TTK with the DA. It's meant to accentuate that they were hit and run. However, the more I play the more I see that this is flawed. There's no burst. You HAVE to play as a team for it to work against anyone who even half asses it as a marine because a single burst fire will bring a DA down to almost 1/4th of their hp.

ONE BURST.

So not only can we not stand up and fight (which is fine), we can't burst unless we have: allies, two of which could be Warlocks. So in order to be comparable we need this much support:

Another DA.
Jinx Warlock
Enhance Warlock.

So that's effectively a 4v1 to get the same percentage result. The problem lies that on the flip side, ours scales much higher, faster. Adding DAs and DRs to the equation = extremely high DPS burst potential. So on the individual level it sucks. On the team level, it just totally wrecks everything. Thr major problem with this is that you've got to get a whole team to fight as a giant DA. And that's really damn hard even for good players.

If you want some numbers:

Number of shots required is rounded to the 1st decimal after the comma.

Then we are looking at the following for MinTTK:

TTK of Bolter (100pen vs 120 toughness, reduces the damage to 34,61 per round) versus Avenger (150hp, 110 armor, 120 toughness) and needs 8 (7,5) rounds to hit, with a 1 round fired every 180ms. Thus we have a TTK of 1440ms, or 1,44ms.

Dire Avenger vs Marine (200hp, 135armor, 120 toughness), the ASC reduces its damage to 18,21. This means it needs 19 (18,4) rounds, shot every 80ms. This results in 1520ms, or 1,52 seconds.

TTK against, by the shoota, the Aforementioned Eldar Dire Avenger... then the Shoota (reduces its damage to 25.5) needs 11 (10,1) rounds... it fires at 125ms per round. Meaning 1375ms. Or 1,375 seconds.

The Dire Avenger with his ASC vs Shoota (227hp, 121 armor, 140 toughness, reduces damage to 16.5) would need 22 (21,09) rounds.. still firing at 80ms per round. That would be 1760ms, or 1,76ms.


The Max TTK is as follows:

Bolter vs DA = Damage reduced to 25.95, which means 10 (10,02) rounds. Results in 1830ms or 1,83seconds.

ASC vs Marine= Damage reduced to 11.64, which means 29 (28,8) rounds. Results in 2320ms, or 2,32seconds.

Shoota vs DA = Damage reduced to 17, which means 16 (15,3) rounds. Results in 2000ms, or 2seconds.

ASC vs Shoota = Damage reduced to 10.55, which means 33 (33) rounds. Results in 2640ms, or 2,64seconds.

Yeah I do the same with my CQB boltor MoS... wish they would get to work on that I can take a melta bomb too and my gun is like a better ASC.

I feel like more speed is needed or MoS needs a nerf since I'm playing like I play Eldar but easy mode honestly as the character is just plain better even if only slightly, I'm also still against more work required for the same basic results because we have a non unique (since 3 factions technically have one) minor speed boost.


Also wow triple posts in the same second, assimilate into the hive mind!