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CSMs... Doesn't almost always winning get a little boring?

Discussion in 'Chaos Space Marines' started by Data8671, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. Mainfold Mainfold Preacher

    You are incapable of formulating your own opinions or actual data to back up your postings, so whenever you reply to anything it's either in an entirely toxic fashion or in an ill-informed opinion-driven accusatorial open-ended fashion where you wait for someone else to post something you can backpack onto first.

    It's extremely ironic calling someone narrow-minded when what you just posted is exactly that.. especially when you claim it to be truth. If it was the case, the data provided by the developers wouldn't suggest opposite of your opinion-pieces. Rheeva at least takes the time to formulate a post as basis for statements.



    If your intent of argument is that of "good players that know how to use the available tools" is the reason for wins, that's a fair point, but could be argued for all factions.
    Granted, this isn't supposed to be about faction balance, and that's fair.. but there's a disconnect that happens whenever a thread is brought up, where people sensationalize chaos as if they're much stronger of a faction than they are, and regardless of how much I enjoy all factions, it's by far not the one that I can get the most kills and whatever on.

    All loadout-related aside, the case of win-loss "balance" comes down to the player mentality in the game, and my weekly experience on the different factions mostly come down to the exact same thing. Players just try harder to win on Chaos, and you're likely to find the players actually on the objectives or going to them as fast as they're aware of the battle-situation changing. I notice myself getting borderline frustrated when playing eldar most of the time, because people don't give enough of a crap about the objective, and more often than not I find myself being the ONLY dire avenger on the entire team, as the chat is filled with complaints from people not willing to change class to cap. On Orks it's a bit of a different cookie.. and odd one.. where often (when an ork match is finally up and running) the orks will be the correct classes to cap, but it's almost like they're not aware that they CAN cap until someone points it out, especially to slugga boys. Though I myself tend to play painboy mostly on orks, as there are a sizable amount that actually are the right class for capping.

    So what's the problem really then? Is it that the game lacks clear indications and directions on the need for capturing objectives or even just informing players that they can (or should swap class to a class that can) capture the objective? Is it that the game doesn't focus enough on rewarding players for playing the objective? Because the mentality difference and priorities of players is noticeable, and you notice an intent on playing the objective being more prevalent on chaos, anyone that plays chaos and tries to get a cap will notice it's almost like a competition to get to the objective first to get the cap etc.


    And if it's stats you want, there's plenty of times it's been posted in plethora
    This is just one of them, as it's the only one I had laying around on my old laptop (as I'm not by my usual rig over the holidays).. and I know yes, there's a more recent one etc.
    [​IMG]

    Not to make the post too long, but the painboy being referred to as the "second worst class" would only hold true if you follow said stats provided by the devs where the sorc is subsequently then the worst class.
    Also, yes.... eldar DO have poison resistance, Brent added a 33% poison damage reduction to eldar because they were dying too quickly due to lower health-pools, quite a while back. It's the only reason eldar can survive a direct impact of the blight grenade, because if they didn't have it, the lower health-pool of the eldar would mean they'd be dead from a direct hit that lands the ailment-bar at such a level of filling that any form of other application of poison brings it to full-damage ticks.
    Njord-Halfhand likes this.
  2. Deathwish Deathwish Well-Known Member

    @Rheeva Holy fuck, are you serious? there are some things you mentioned that make me scratch my head in wonder.
    lets start.
    and then you go on to say
    How is NCS a problem when it's for a class that you yourself just deemed non competitive?
    INB4 "But you can also use it on Raptors!"
    Judgement was passed and the verdict is that Raptors are the worst of the jump classes.
  3. Is this thread asking if CSM would enjoy the game more by losing to LSM because they deserve to win... Because LSM?

    I've seen some warp fuckery on this forum but this one is next level.
    Deathwish likes this.
  4. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    If you payed attention, you would notice how 'people' are complaining about the NCS, not me. I am only bothered by the visual noise and the fact that every Raptor, T-rex and Diplodocus in the Chaos army uses it. (also it should be bound to Nurgle)

    However, on Raptors:
    They are arguably the weakest jump-class. Worse than Stormboy, I'll give you that, pretty much on par with the JPA with the NCS compensating for most downsides. Blop ranks both at A+ and I am inclined to agree given that the both most profilic Jetpack-players are in their ranks
    Furthermore, Raptors are a much, much more frequent occurence than JPA's and, admittedly, are also much more likely to be played by a decent fighter.
    I also want to point out, to you specifically, that no class uses the Smart-Pistol as much as they do.
    Last but not least, even if they were 'the worst jump-class', it would still rank them the third-best melee-class. (Jetpack>Shield>Everything else)

    On a personal note: I hate Raptors. That is largely due to the fact that there is very little counterplay against one other than hoping for my team to save me. All you really have to do is spam quick-attack or smart-pistol and not act like a complete idiot (like hitting walls) and there is next to nothing an Eldar can do to survive a Raptor-attack.
    Also because, if spammed in HTL, they are a better suicide-runner than the Tempest was at its prime.
    I have seen countless allies die to Raptors with literally nothing I could do about it.
    I agree that none of this is specific to the Raptor or the Raptors fault, but they are the most obvious target for my hate.

    As for Traitor-Assaults, I am only left wondering how I can get 50 kills on a Banshee and others, on a class that literally does the same thing but with 1.5 times the EHP, cant.
    On the other hand, a Scorpion is very similar in design to a TA, including the DoT-sword and I don't like to use them, so maybe there is a problem I am just not seeing.

    I give you 'sensational'. But that is not exclusive to Chaos. No matter the game, the faction, the class, the item you look at, you will always see statements that are more extreme than reality. Partially because of an actor-observer-bias, partially because it makes for a stronger point.
    Also, its much more illustrative that way.
    Lets say the available scale is 0-100, but all factions range in 45-55. However, if we discuss balance, it will often happen in terms of 1-10 to make a better point. Actual power-discrepancy is much smaller than it could be, but the relative distance between asset A and B and asset B and C can still be very big.
    Both Eldar and Chaos are tryhards tbh. Its a big part of the reason why both are frustrating to play against.
    On top of that, Eldar are very kill-hungry and will often abandon a position to get into fighting.
    Chaos deals with morale-issues similar to LSM. Once they are loosing, they will unlikely recover and everything falls apart if a plan does not work out.
    Truth be told, there is only a handful of players who really do everything they could for a win. Like: literally, I could probably name all of them. But there are a lot more who at least give it a good try if you encourage them a bit.
    As for capping: I don't really have a problem with people not capturing at all. But I don't believe its widely understood how important it really is to initiate a cap quickly. Generally, I don't think 99% of the players realize, how important speed is and how 2-3 seconds can make a match. Nay, how 2-3 seconds decide almost every match I play that is not a blowout.
    Yeah, this is exactly the sheet I was referring to that is meaningless.
    Here is my, full version if you are interested. K/D, I mean: please. It does not compensate for player-skill, it does not take into account AV, suppression, healing. We don't know if those kills came from farming a Zombeacon or camping a side-point.
    According to this chart, heavies would be the best class to play and we all know that isn't true. As a selection of factors to take into account:
    -How often and for which scenarios is a class picked?(For instance Heavies on a tower)
    -How many kills does a class make in a certain timeframe? (for instance a Scorpion camping a secondary objective will kill almost any lone wolf, but only every, few minutes)
    -Who plays this class and how well? (For instance the respective Tactical variants are often newbie-choices, hence cannon-fodder)
    -How does forced retreat or kiting affect actual combat-performance?(Important for instance for the Hawk)

    And, as Ive said. I can take this very information from the chart and frame it into a context that proves the exact opposite of your point. I can read pretty much anything out of it I want and reasonably explain how I reached that conclusion.
    The main takeaway from this chart should be the part where everything ranks in the area of 40-60%, which is really good balance. You can look at the rest and try to draw some conclusions, but there is simply too much noise to hold it in very high regard.
    There are some interesting statistics tho. For instance after the last, three nerfs to Eldar, the performance of the respective classes actually increased.
    I wouldn't know about any of this, bit before my time. It seems odd tho, as I can't remember a Blight grenade ever dealing any significant damage to me.
  5. Deathwish Deathwish Well-Known Member

    @Rheeva

    I must concur with this statement despite my best efforts to shame the shit out of smart pistol users every opportunity I get.

    Here's the story so far and there are alot of raptors on that wall.
    Wall of Shame 12-20-17.jpg
  6. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    To be fair: Smarts are great for Jump-classes and Raptors don't have industrial Plasma pistols.
  7. EugeneHardy Recruit

    So if im the only on who's trying to kill that damn havoc who's sitting on the root and killing my teammates for 5 mins and im doing it wrong? and if its a team game we all must run as a group to be killed by a single grenade? Iv been killed so many times when there was few of my teammates in few meters from me because they just dont see red dots on the radar. You saying team game like all your fights are group vs group and you never do anything solo. I personally using stalker bolter only because to deal with havocs because looks like sm dont have jump assault or just dont want to make them stop killing their teammates from half a map. And i saw csm players with 30-40 kills per map, sometimes i watched how they play from cover. They just solo rape!! with adad skillz 2-3 players in a row teabagging them and running for more solo kills.
  8. Mainfold Mainfold Preacher

    To be honest, they should have removed the smart pistols outright already, they have no place anymore as the old reasoning of "for when the console release happens" doesn't hold any water now that it's become a 100% unlikely thing to ever happen. Generally melee lock-on should be removed entirely (so melee functions more like the ork melee where you're more or less forced to not use lock-on as the lock on at times just sends you in a straight line, and the enemy can just walk to the side and you miss).

    I'm all for more people using plasma etc, though industrial plasma pistol is substantially better than the MoS-requiring piece of crap burst plasma pistol chaos have lol, but orks have excellent choices for secondaries.. then again, chaos and eldar only have two choices so I guess that leaves more to be desired, where LSM have 3 with good variants of all of them available.
  9. Fryskar Fryskar Active Member

    Two days ago i decided to "challange" myself a bit on olipsis by only using my slaaneshi mc las cannon.

    It did well in reminding me why i don't play lsm anymore.
    Not only their abandoned rhinos died quick, their manned lived only a bit longer as they didn't realize the mounted SB is going to stop me. As the rhinos were out i decided to do the full match with this (weak?) loadout and proceeded to hunt lsm.
    It was somewhat sad yet entertaining. Only one sinlge dude (think from bro) even tried to aviod getting a nice, burning hole in their chest. Made some nice LotD toasts.
  10. Deathwish Deathwish Well-Known Member

    I must really be missing out on my LSM since I don't have Industrial. Plain Jane PP on my Raptor does me just fine though. I use it for CC purposes anyways, not it's killy power.

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