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CSMs... Doesn't almost always winning get a little boring?

Discussion in 'Chaos Space Marines' started by Data8671, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. This is just getting boring always losing as LSMs and always winning as CSMs... Game 1: attack promethium pipes as LSM- no cap over in 5 minutes. Game 2: defend the same map as LSMs- triple capped by CSMs with very little effort from them.
  2. Update: LSM are on a win streak because I'm repeatedly getting Squad Leader and I'm playing AV
    Katzu_HSM likes this.
  3. EugeneHardy Recruit

    im playing with stalker bolter or trying to backdoor enemies so im 99% doing solo so this Squad Cohesfhghn.. isnt my thing but thanks for explanation.
  4. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    I don't mind chaos being a little stronger than every one else. They have a really powerful combination of good gear and good players and they usually deserve their wins.(unless they just spam Raptors)
    I just wish they were better at it. Chaos Space Marines are, generally speaking, awful losers and abysmal winners.
    LSM cry when they get stomped, yes, which I can perfectly understand, but they usually acknowledge a good fight, whether they win or lose.
    CSM however are super-salty when they lose, even or particularly after a close match and if they actually win, the first 3-4 comments are either 'ggez' or 'lost as Eldar'.
  5. Sindri Myr AnotherAlpharius Steam Early Access

    Tips for LSM.
    First of all forget everything they teached you after recruiting. Really.
    Then join Chaos. Joining once is allowed. One time - not heretic. Joining twice - HERETIC. Joining thrice - Alpharius :CSMAlpha:
    Take everything they teach you there. 10000 years of battles knowledge is there. So, now you can try to turn back to loyalists...

    Ouch, I forgot to say that you cannot become loyalist again ( if you are not Alpharius, but don't tell anybody :CSMAlpha: ), I'm sorry that I sold your ass to Slaanesh, goodbye :CSMAlpha:
  6. Mainfold Mainfold Preacher

    Chaos stronger than everyone else? That's horseshit and you know it. Especially when you're blinded by being an eldar fanatic that neglects to take a look at the faction being played, that has outright dominating classes in their fields.
    The whole "strongest wargear" thing has been debunked time and time again, and the raptors are the worst jump-class in the game, as wargear options limit and punish the raptors, where other factions have open access to pad stats with more available stats.

    The stats the devs have provided do not lie, they've clearly shown exactly the strength of the classes and factions via metrics they've gathered, showing the order of strength from strongest to weakest goes such as; ork, eldar, lsm, csm.
    Why is it people willfully ignore the numbers provided? Is it so you can find some justification you can yell out in your echo-chamber of self-appointed victimhood?
    Almost everything people outline as "the strongest" about chaos is available in a better for for other factions. Autocannons? Orks have a better one. Multi-melta? LSM have a much better one. Poison? Orks have better means of applying it, eldar have means of applying it and poison resistance, lsm have means of applying it and healing nades that negate its effect. Warpthirst axe? LSM have both CSoF and MoP. AV? Obviously eldar excel at it to the nth degree. Boltguns? LSM.. Plasma weapons? LSM, Orks.. the list goes on and on and on.. there's nothing that uniquely makes chaos any better than the other factions, and if you're gonna attempt to say the same old "but the marks", then you need to take a good long hard look at the drawbacks they have and their stats and LP thus being balanced around said drawbacks + benefits
    Lutek and Deathwish like this.
  7. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    I have no intentions of turning this into a balancing discussion but I have to ask why you are just listing a number of random items? I know exactly, the advantages I am talking about.

    LSM and CSM are mostly identical in terms of wargear with two, major exceptions:
    -Chaos Marks allow for a much greater specialization and more purposeful builds. A Nurgle Marine isn't just 'tanky', he is 'super tanky'. CSM range somewhere between LSM and Eldar, EHP and versatility on one side, specialists and speed on the other and, yes, they get to have the best of both worlds, not the worst.
    -Aspiring Sorcerers are not directly superior to Apothecaries, but they are much, much more pug-friendly and easier to use. So are Warlocks btw, with the difference that the high EHP and particularly toughness of CSM is a great synergy for pocket-healing.

    As for Eldar, I can spend all day proving to you mathmatically why they are weaker, but we both know you wont listen and, given our success-rate, I find it at least understandable.
    This topic is likely not supposed to be about Eldar Balance. Eldar, as any faction, have a set of strenghts and weaknesses that can play out more or less powerful in specific scenarios, its called 'assymmetrical balance'.

    Eldar are not 'Overpowered'. If you shoot them, they die.
    Eldar are not 'Underpowered'. If they shoot someone, someone dies.

    Whatever your opinion on this topic, whatever you want to say: It has been said like a million times now and you are not contributing anything new to the discussion. Every Eldar is kinda sick of hearing how 'OP' they allegedly are and every non-Eldar is sick of being told to 'Git Gud'.

    The general problem is that Eldar, in their current state, are deeply unsatisfying to play and play against. They need fixing, but for 'fun' reasons, not for balancing reasons.
    It is in all of our interest to make that process as fair as possible and consider concerns from both sides equally, not just a singular or assymmetric answer.

    Regardless. There is a pretty good chance this topic was never supposed to be about Eldar so just try not to make it about Eldar.

    But you seem to be missing my point. I wasn't actually suggesting Chaos is 'OP' or anything. Objectively, they range very high up, but the inter-faction balance differences are not big enough to care.
    In other words: Yes, CSM are more powerful than LSM and Eldar. That is a fact and not an opinion.
    But I don't care about that. The advantage you have is not enough to be a gamechanger, a better team will still always beat you. So will a lucky team, or one that has an advantage on the map.
    Frankly, I am sick of faction-balance discussions.
    There are disparities, yes, but none important enough to care about. Not CSM, not Eldar, not Orks and not LSM, we can all win and we have all proven it again and again!
    The interesting discussion is class-balance, build diversity, meta-composition and the likes.
    If you want my personal, non-objective opinion: I don't like Chaos. I think a lot of your stuff is cheesy and it regularly drives me to outrage how much easier the game is for you than for me.
    But I am not letting this bias cloud my judgement. My opinion and my analysis are as separate as I can make them and I wish I could say the same about you.

    But I'm getting off-point. What I was, what I am saying is that Chaos has the best combination of strong gear and veteran players. All your classes are viable and all your classes but the Traitor Assault are competitive.
    You have no major downsides with plenty of toys to choose from.
    You don't get all the newbies, like LSM and all your veterans haven't left, like Orks. You have a solid playerbase of experienced and competitive players who will actually work towards a win rather than just doing their thing.
    Your stuff isn't as strong as Orks, your vet/noob ratio isn't as good as Eldar's but, in the end of the day, you achieve the best compromise and have the best chances to win.

    Last but not least, there is quite a bit of bullshit in your post I cant ignore:
    -Poison: Both LSM and Orks have its application bound to Support classes. One of them the officially second-worst class in the game. Healing nades dont 'negate' its effect, Eldar do not have any kind of poison resistance.
    And, and I cant stretch this enough: Nobody actually ever complained about poison. What people do complain about is the Necrotic Chainsword being a direct upgrade to any competitor to no downside. If it makes you feel better: I think the same way about the Burny Choppa or the new Warlock Blade. You cant just add 20, 30 damage to a weapon and consider it fine. These two just generate less visual noise and have less bonus-damage.
    -What 'Stats the devs have provided' excatly? The K/D scores? Please don't be ridiculous. I don't think anyone has worked with those stats more than I did and I can assure you I can frame these information in literally every way I want.
    As for actual 'numbers', you still fail to provide any that support your argument and you also still wonder why we are ignoring your non-existent math in favour of actual calculations like TTK.
  8. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    say whatever you want but if you dont think balance is like that then ur wrong,we already talked about it numerous amount of times but you are too blind or/and narrow minded to see the truth
    your drawback for marks is horse shit , nobody gives a shit about stamina regen debuff on nurgle
  9. So - in a team game - you run solo and wonder why you lose to the group operating as a team?

    The faction isn't OP. Their teamwork is.
    KidVicious likes this.
  10. Mainfold Mainfold Preacher

    You are incapable of formulating your own opinions or actual data to back up your postings, so whenever you reply to anything it's either in an entirely toxic fashion or in an ill-informed opinion-driven accusatorial open-ended fashion where you wait for someone else to post something you can backpack onto first.

    It's extremely ironic calling someone narrow-minded when what you just posted is exactly that.. especially when you claim it to be truth. If it was the case, the data provided by the developers wouldn't suggest opposite of your opinion-pieces. Rheeva at least takes the time to formulate a post as basis for statements.

    If your intent of argument is that of "good players that know how to use the available tools" is the reason for wins, that's a fair point, but could be argued for all factions.
    Granted, this isn't supposed to be about faction balance, and that's fair.. but there's a disconnect that happens whenever a thread is brought up, where people sensationalize chaos as if they're much stronger of a faction than they are, and regardless of how much I enjoy all factions, it's by far not the one that I can get the most kills and whatever on.

    All loadout-related aside, the case of win-loss "balance" comes down to the player mentality in the game, and my weekly experience on the different factions mostly come down to the exact same thing. Players just try harder to win on Chaos, and you're likely to find the players actually on the objectives or going to them as fast as they're aware of the battle-situation changing. I notice myself getting borderline frustrated when playing eldar most of the time, because people don't give enough of a crap about the objective, and more often than not I find myself being the ONLY dire avenger on the entire team, as the chat is filled with complaints from people not willing to change class to cap. On Orks it's a bit of a different cookie.. and odd one.. where often (when an ork match is finally up and running) the orks will be the correct classes to cap, but it's almost like they're not aware that they CAN cap until someone points it out, especially to slugga boys. Though I myself tend to play painboy mostly on orks, as there are a sizable amount that actually are the right class for capping.

    So what's the problem really then? Is it that the game lacks clear indications and directions on the need for capturing objectives or even just informing players that they can (or should swap class to a class that can) capture the objective? Is it that the game doesn't focus enough on rewarding players for playing the objective? Because the mentality difference and priorities of players is noticeable, and you notice an intent on playing the objective being more prevalent on chaos, anyone that plays chaos and tries to get a cap will notice it's almost like a competition to get to the objective first to get the cap etc.

    And if it's stats you want, there's plenty of times it's been posted in plethora
    This is just one of them, as it's the only one I had laying around on my old laptop (as I'm not by my usual rig over the holidays).. and I know yes, there's a more recent one etc.

    Not to make the post too long, but the painboy being referred to as the "second worst class" would only hold true if you follow said stats provided by the devs where the sorc is subsequently then the worst class.
    Also, yes.... eldar DO have poison resistance, Brent added a 33% poison damage reduction to eldar because they were dying too quickly due to lower health-pools, quite a while back. It's the only reason eldar can survive a direct impact of the blight grenade, because if they didn't have it, the lower health-pool of the eldar would mean they'd be dead from a direct hit that lands the ailment-bar at such a level of filling that any form of other application of poison brings it to full-damage ticks.
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