Discussion in 'Chaos Space Marines' started by Data8671, Dec 19, 2017.
Guess what we keep them in? Squad Cohesion.
This is just getting boring always losing as LSMs and always winning as CSMs... Game 1: attack promethium pipes as LSM- no cap over in 5 minutes. Game 2: defend the same map as LSMs- triple capped by CSMs with very little effort from them.
Update: LSM are on a win streak because I'm repeatedly getting Squad Leader and I'm playing AV
im playing with stalker bolter or trying to backdoor enemies so im 99% doing solo so this Squad Cohesfhghn.. isnt my thing but thanks for explanation.
I don't mind chaos being a little stronger than every one else. They have a really powerful combination of good gear and good players and they usually deserve their wins.(unless they just spam Raptors)
I just wish they were better at it. Chaos Space Marines are, generally speaking, awful losers and abysmal winners.
LSM cry when they get stomped, yes, which I can perfectly understand, but they usually acknowledge a good fight, whether they win or lose.
CSM however are super-salty when they lose, even or particularly after a close match and if they actually win, the first 3-4 comments are either 'ggez' or 'lost as Eldar'.
Tips for LSM.
First of all forget everything they teached you after recruiting. Really.
Then join Chaos. Joining once is allowed. One time - not heretic. Joining twice - HERETIC. Joining thrice - Alpharius
Take everything they teach you there. 10000 years of battles knowledge is there. So, now you can try to turn back to loyalists...
Ouch, I forgot to say that you cannot become loyalist again ( if you are not Alpharius, but don't tell anybody ), I'm sorry that I sold your ass to Slaanesh, goodbye
Chaos stronger than everyone else? That's horseshit and you know it. Especially when you're blinded by being an eldar fanatic that neglects to take a look at the faction being played, that has outright dominating classes in their fields.
The whole "strongest wargear" thing has been debunked time and time again, and the raptors are the worst jump-class in the game, as wargear options limit and punish the raptors, where other factions have open access to pad stats with more available stats.
The stats the devs have provided do not lie, they've clearly shown exactly the strength of the classes and factions via metrics they've gathered, showing the order of strength from strongest to weakest goes such as; ork, eldar, lsm, csm.
Why is it people willfully ignore the numbers provided? Is it so you can find some justification you can yell out in your echo-chamber of self-appointed victimhood?
Almost everything people outline as "the strongest" about chaos is available in a better for for other factions. Autocannons? Orks have a better one. Multi-melta? LSM have a much better one. Poison? Orks have better means of applying it, eldar have means of applying it and poison resistance, lsm have means of applying it and healing nades that negate its effect. Warpthirst axe? LSM have both CSoF and MoP. AV? Obviously eldar excel at it to the nth degree. Boltguns? LSM.. Plasma weapons? LSM, Orks.. the list goes on and on and on.. there's nothing that uniquely makes chaos any better than the other factions, and if you're gonna attempt to say the same old "but the marks", then you need to take a good long hard look at the drawbacks they have and their stats and LP thus being balanced around said drawbacks + benefits
I have no intentions of turning this into a balancing discussion but I have to ask why you are just listing a number of random items? I know exactly, the advantages I am talking about.
LSM and CSM are mostly identical in terms of wargear with two, major exceptions:
-Chaos Marks allow for a much greater specialization and more purposeful builds. A Nurgle Marine isn't just 'tanky', he is 'super tanky'. CSM range somewhere between LSM and Eldar, EHP and versatility on one side, specialists and speed on the other and, yes, they get to have the best of both worlds, not the worst.
-Aspiring Sorcerers are not directly superior to Apothecaries, but they are much, much more pug-friendly and easier to use. So are Warlocks btw, with the difference that the high EHP and particularly toughness of CSM is a great synergy for pocket-healing.
As for Eldar, I can spend all day proving to you mathmatically why they are weaker, but we both know you wont listen and, given our success-rate, I find it at least understandable.
This topic is likely not supposed to be about Eldar Balance. Eldar, as any faction, have a set of strenghts and weaknesses that can play out more or less powerful in specific scenarios, its called 'assymmetrical balance'.
Eldar are not 'Overpowered'. If you shoot them, they die.
Eldar are not 'Underpowered'. If they shoot someone, someone dies.
Whatever your opinion on this topic, whatever you want to say: It has been said like a million times now and you are not contributing anything new to the discussion. Every Eldar is kinda sick of hearing how 'OP' they allegedly are and every non-Eldar is sick of being told to 'Git Gud'.
The general problem is that Eldar, in their current state, are deeply unsatisfying to play and play against. They need fixing, but for 'fun' reasons, not for balancing reasons.
It is in all of our interest to make that process as fair as possible and consider concerns from both sides equally, not just a singular or assymmetric answer.
Regardless. There is a pretty good chance this topic was never supposed to be about Eldar so just try not to make it about Eldar.
But you seem to be missing my point. I wasn't actually suggesting Chaos is 'OP' or anything. Objectively, they range very high up, but the inter-faction balance differences are not big enough to care.
In other words: Yes, CSM are more powerful than LSM and Eldar. That is a fact and not an opinion.
But I don't care about that. The advantage you have is not enough to be a gamechanger, a better team will still always beat you. So will a lucky team, or one that has an advantage on the map.
Frankly, I am sick of faction-balance discussions.
There are disparities, yes, but none important enough to care about. Not CSM, not Eldar, not Orks and not LSM, we can all win and we have all proven it again and again!
The interesting discussion is class-balance, build diversity, meta-composition and the likes.
If you want my personal, non-objective opinion: I don't like Chaos. I think a lot of your stuff is cheesy and it regularly drives me to outrage how much easier the game is for you than for me.
But I am not letting this bias cloud my judgement. My opinion and my analysis are as separate as I can make them and I wish I could say the same about you.
But I'm getting off-point. What I was, what I am saying is that Chaos has the best combination of strong gear and veteran players. All your classes are viable and all your classes but the Traitor Assault are competitive.
You have no major downsides with plenty of toys to choose from.
You don't get all the newbies, like LSM and all your veterans haven't left, like Orks. You have a solid playerbase of experienced and competitive players who will actually work towards a win rather than just doing their thing.
Your stuff isn't as strong as Orks, your vet/noob ratio isn't as good as Eldar's but, in the end of the day, you achieve the best compromise and have the best chances to win.
Last but not least, there is quite a bit of bullshit in your post I cant ignore:
-Poison: Both LSM and Orks have its application bound to Support classes. One of them the officially second-worst class in the game. Healing nades dont 'negate' its effect, Eldar do not have any kind of poison resistance.
And, and I cant stretch this enough: Nobody actually ever complained about poison. What people do complain about is the Necrotic Chainsword being a direct upgrade to any competitor to no downside. If it makes you feel better: I think the same way about the Burny Choppa or the new Warlock Blade. You cant just add 20, 30 damage to a weapon and consider it fine. These two just generate less visual noise and have less bonus-damage.
-What 'Stats the devs have provided' excatly? The K/D scores? Please don't be ridiculous. I don't think anyone has worked with those stats more than I did and I can assure you I can frame these information in literally every way I want.
As for actual 'numbers', you still fail to provide any that support your argument and you also still wonder why we are ignoring your non-existent math in favour of actual calculations like TTK.
say whatever you want but if you dont think balance is like that then ur wrong,we already talked about it numerous amount of times but you are too blind or/and narrow minded to see the truth
your drawback for marks is horse shit , nobody gives a shit about stamina regen debuff on nurgle
So - in a team game - you run solo and wonder why you lose to the group operating as a team?
The faction isn't OP. Their teamwork is.