I think we may have made the same point but in a different way. I don't mean that the lascannon has a spread of shot like a a shotgun either, I simply mean what I said, that the good players (really good players) use it to take down someone when up close because they have developed that skill, not because it's easy to do. In fact it's extremely difficult to do and I rarely see it.

I take your point about running with the las and having a crosshair, it wouldn't be realistic or useful so there shouldn't be one as it would just be irritating. In Space Marines there is NO crosshair unless actually aiming with the lascannon and I think that describes that weapon perfectly. It's for pin point shooting and even just having it on the hip there isn't even a dot. However, I don't think there should necessarily be a modifier as such if someone is in hand to hand combat as the fact that the las is so hard to use in that situation is actually the modifier itself. If you train your little Ultrasmurf butt off and get really good at blowing the head off an orc when he's only 1m away I think is to be promoted and not reduced.

I think what starts to happen in the game then is you get specialists (off topic here a little I guess, but it is linked), who start to get so good with a weapon and their ability to use that weapon in all situations that you become renowned and respected. There are players who I know when they pick up the vengance launcher it's time to just run, same with the plasma cannon etc, I think that's what we're all looking for in this game, is that knowing a weapon so well that you can do things with it that seem improbable. But isn't that what a Space Marine represents?

After all where's the subtlety and challenge in game play if you can't perfect your craft with a particular weapon. I pride myself on sniping with the stalker bolter for example and can anticipate where a raptor will land so I can nail it when it does. You can only do that when you get pretty good with that weapon, but there are players out there that make me look silly with the same weapon (Miloubear, Berus Deathwolf). That's purely down to skill and practice. That is a key part of what I think will make this game great is that ability to master something.

Your other point about the heavy bolter being perfect for the expanding circle is a good one and I think that is actually the only weapon in SM that has the expanding circle, which is as you say reduced once braced. That is a realistic behaviour of that weapon. Having said that I have had my arse handed to me many times by players who have developed a skill set with that weapon and can actively move around the battlefield like a heavy tactical marine (a slow one) and use that weapon on the hip with no targeter. Again there shouldn't be a disadvantage built into the game as the fact it's difficult to do is the disadvantage.

I know the crosshair is a tiny portion of the game but it is the player's connection with the game from your HUD. Simple.

You won't find me arguing with that. Crosshairs are incredibly important UI elements for ranged chars. You're also right that we agree on most points. The only thing we don't agree on is exactly what role player skill should play.

For example, a really good PvP player in Space Marine could get used to the quirks of their weapon and learn to shoot reasonably accurately in the absence of a crosshair, or overcome intended flaws through practice. There's nothing wrong with this in principle, and many games have done it well over the years.

I just prefer the other side of the fence, which is based more on the expanding circle approach. You can learn to cope better with the downsides of the mechanic, but you can't use skill and experience to bypass it. Its a more newcomer friendly model and, in my experience, promotes tactical decision-making over twitch skills. Many games have done this well over the years too.

You prefer the first approach, I prefer the second.

I agree and also think that Space Marine nailed the cross hair dynamic in their different feeling and appearance according to which weapon you used.
I also thought the fact the cross hairs acted as an additional HUD showing vital info was very good too. Plasma weapons when charging a shot, amount of vengeance launcher projectiles currently active etc.

Good to see Nicolas and the team taking this concept while looking to expand and improve.

My only complaint about space marine is the lack of a cross or dot in the center of several of the sights, could be optional or something but I prefer having something to indicate the exact center of the sight.

We should have a crappy, hard to use crosshairs for orks by default.

I actually like the way world of tanks is set up for 360 edition. Also think initiative could be implemented in this way too. Basically every gun has different accuracy that also goes along with player character accuracy. Time spent not moving improves your accuracy yet pivoting shouldn't affect it as much. Expanding circle concept. Initiative is represented by how fast you are allowed to turn to aim.