If i recall correctly in early interviews their was talk about limited ammo to encourage melee combat

To be honest, that alpha footage of close combat actually discouraged me a little bit (wide swings going through bodies, animations not sticking to surfaces, etc). That said, it is very early Alpha and hopefully things will get cleaned up (I'm fairly certain it will, but to what degree?).

That said, I like the Time to Kill to be longer in close combat than one to two hits. I think someone mentioned that if it took longer than that, the close combat combatants would be focused down by massed fire. Well, I both agree and disagree. If, say, a couple of assault marines initiate close combat without ranged support, with some shoota boyz, then I would expect them to be cut down by enemy fire once they are finished in melee. That's why I think friends, positioning and tactics will be important.

Also, while in close combat I feel that you are fairly "safe", at least as long as there's plenty of combatants in the close combat from both sides. Remember, there's friendly fire and I'm sure that people do not want to hit their friends (especially not with heavy weapons such as Zzap guns and rokkit launchers), especially when friendly fire will have a negative effect on your gameplay. We cant' be sure though, since we know so little. It's basicallyall speculation at this point.

For me the ultimate combat would not only look exciting, it would also play out smoothly with parries, dodges and close combat potshots with pistols. Here's hoping there's a cool system out there that will implement that! Of course, when you have a 50 on 50 close combat fight, much strategy and tactics will go out the window and you'll start swinging and shooting wildly. But... if it looks awesome while you do it, I'm game.

While I can respect your desire to have combat that would include parrying, bobbing, weaving, and quick step back 1 deags, it's just not practical. Melee combat would be terribly obsolete, particularly with automatic fire, vehicles, and explosives involved. I'm not sure if you've ever played PS2, but unfortunately most people don't give a DAMN about their allies in close quarters if they're in vehicles. If they see 1 or 2 guys in melee with 4 or 5, they'll shoot their tanks, drop their bombs, etc. with the mindset of "I might kill my teammates but I'll kill more enemies." Slowing down the melee combat would only increase the time needed to be spent in melee combat, and I feel would take away from it immensely.

The aspects you're looking for work in games like Chivalry because the ranged combat is equally (if not more so) difficult than the melee combat. A game like EC should play fast, like GunZ or Quake. The melee combat looks promising to me, so long as it doesn't turn into a left click spam and whoever connected with the first hit will win. They referenced Gears of War; which had the ability (also shown in the pre alpha footage) to dive/roll/evade. Provided you aren't wtfstunned on the first hit in melee combat, those abilities (coupled with certain classes abilities to jump jet, cloak, shoot back) I feel there could be an AWESOME, fun, and high skill ceiling aspect of the game in melee combat. Particularly too if, say, the Dark Eldar are implemented and receive the Incubus as a hero class. Incubi only use Klaives or Demi-Klaives and nothing else; so pushing melee with them would be incredibly fun, but also melee against them and using your maneuverability would be fun as well.

Let's not forget that it's also been stated your proficiency with weapons will depend on if you're dual wielding or not; a player wielding a chainsword and bolter simultaneously will gain the flexibility of using both weapons, but will not be as accurate/damaging as a player who has committed both hands to one or the other.

Finally, I feel the differing classes will also play a huge roll; I imagine the ranged DPS classes will get roflstomped in melee, most likely dying in 1 to 3 hits, while a melee class vs melee class will probably take at least 5 or 6. Comparatively, most melee classes will most likely get melted if they stay at range with the dedicated ranged DPS class.

All in all this is pure speculation we are coming up with because we are bored and want to play the finished product. I just don't want them to slow the game speed down to create a high TTK; games like GunZ and Quake have incredibly high TTKs, not because each character can withstand a plethora of bullets, but because the speed and mobility allowed naturally creates engaging, fun, and challenging combat.

Also, WTB Dark Eldar asap. Particularly Incubi.

Good counter argument, bmurph101. I hope that, either way, that combat will be awesome, fun and skill based, just like you said, even if I might want things to be a little bit slower than what you're suggesting (might be my age that starts to show, can't keep up with the youngsters anymore. ). Time will tell!

The thing is though, you die really easily in PS2. You can kill a guy in 2 seconds flat or straight up instantly if it's point blank (shotguns) and there are next to no crowd control abilities except for two grenades that no one uses because why care about stuff like that when you can just shoot the guy dead in 2 seconds? The EC devs have mentioned having poisoned weapons and stuff which would only be useful in a game with a really high TTK so it gives me hope they'll make people really durable against ranged attacks and perhaps more vulnerable against melee.

If the TTK is much higher in EC then squads of meleers can jump squads of ranged infantry and deal a lot of damage. There is no such class as an assault marine in PS2 either. They have jumppacks in PS2 but they're slow and not meant for making quick attacks. From the footage I saw in the Alpha the jump pack soldiers will be able to close distance with opponents much more effectively than any class in PS2 and if it takes about 3x longer to kill them I can see a group of 10 meleers cause a real ruckus to a group of 10 ranged, especially if melee attacks disrupt the shooting of ranged infantry whenever they hit or if they have abilities like the assault marines from Dawn of War who knock back opponents when they land next to them etc.

There are a lot of ways to go about this and it would make no sense for the devs to focus a lot of time on implementing melee if they're going to make shooting absolutely superior

I completely agree; I'm all about the melee pushing and I want a high TTK as well; however, it doesn't need to be something ridiculous like 10 hits to kill someone. That, and it doesn't need to be slowed down; if the melee combat gets slower than what we saw in the pre alpha vid, then the ranged combat would also need to be slowed down exponentially, else the melee side of things would be terribly obsolete.

@Reclusiarch thanks man.

How about storm shields that you can charge with , allowing you to block bolter and similar rounds headon

I'm fine with a simplistic combat system but Space Marine's close combat which is looking near identical to the alpha footage we've seen is disheartening. In that game there is little control when in melee and it's mainly skill-less flailing and spamming. I hated suddenly losing all control and precision in Space Marine in melee combat.

Combine Space Marine with Chivalry in 3rd person, retain the one button attack system, and that's a match made in heaven. Close combat will be more controllable and will have less flailing.

@ Puriel - Storm shields are an interesting item to deal with, for sure, and combat shields for that matter. I'd assume they would be somewhat restricted, either by a fairly high requisition cost, maybe it'll take up more accessory slots than other items. Definitely impact the nature of melee though especially considering the recent talk of the "closing" phase of the fight. Same for urban/indoor brawls. Maybe a charge/cooldown mechanic should be considered to prevent them from being perma-activated? Ignoring that, the user's flanks will still be vulnerable and given the intended player count so maybe that would be enough.

Regarding TTK and damage, it is possible that it would feasibly only take a couple of melee hits to take someone out (I mean a chain or power weapon is meant to make short work of armour right?) So I would expect pretty high damage output where the strikes land unimpeded. That last word is the key though, as I would expect similar weapons would be capable of blocking one another ("physical" weapons could block one another, like chainswords, power weapons could function similarly against other power weapons). If blocking is included, then that is where the TTK would be defined by - perhaps with an unskilled player who cannot block or maneuver away will be downed with only a couple melee strikes whereas an experienced and skill player can manage to block, essentially extending their TTK until one of them makes a mistake or gets shot.

I don't view the concept of TTK as the same as life/damage though as the former is much more dependent on the player and circumstance where life and damage is more of a constant.


I'll echo God's last line posted earlier:

If the intent was to make the game entirely range-oriented then they would be stepping pretty far from the lore - can't see that happening. Of course ranged play has a huge bearing on things but like melee it is circumstantial - both are effective, just not always in the same scenarios or with the same minds.


And I'll extend the quote it a bit further by saying that it would also make little sense to implement melee combat if it can be summed up as button mashing, flailing, or random. To be skill-based/influenced there has to be a higher degree of control associated with it. The player also needs some way of mitigating or evading damage, whether that is blocking, stunning, dodging/rolls, absorption/deflection, shields, or an assortment of these or more. If there isn't, then it WILL renege into something of a combination of spam, luck and randomness. Leaving it to chance or just to whomever hits first will function, yes, but it won't be engaging.


This is a next-gen kind of title with what has, to this point (at least for me) is being created by a very capable team. Games like M&B, Chiv, WotR, Gears, DS and of course SM have good and not-so-good aspects of their combat that can (and should) be picked through to create an amalgamation that best fits EC. I'm a believer that they'll do the job right - especially with so much public input, haha.

I still play Spacemarine MP, and some of the battles are just a blast( when latency is good and teams are properly balanced). The problem with that game is by FAR the P2P system and bad netcoding. They never got around to fix that which mattered the most; the incredible lag and ridiculous host-migrations. The combat systems is actually quite good imho, especially if you play with a controller.
When the game was fresh everyone cried about the 1mile lag-swords and stalker/melta. It's safe to say the meta has changed now. (The one mile lag-swords are still there). It can be a punishing game, but you never feel outgunned, only outnumbered.

The main problem in Spacemarine was/is the lag. You can effectively fight melee Tac vs Raptor, but the lag sometimes negates all atempts on interrupt attacks, which are absolutely crucial for winning a melee brawl. Alot of players didn't recognise this and stated the melee class was OPd, while in fact it was not. Lag made it op, and the fact that people wanted to run around and pointing and clicking with their mouse, only to get wft-stunned when a raptor landed next to them and they just stood there and took it insted of blocking the attack. Problem is, if the raptor landing next to you is "server", and latency is bad, there is only so much you can do. And that put alot of people off the game.
Many people had strong opinions about Spacemarine, but few actually played it very much or for very long.

But the one thing Spacemarine did right was the pace, it has incredible fast and frantic fighting. That game did alot of things right in capturing the frenzy of Wh40k battles. Yes, ttk is very short, but with health and armour regen and a lot evasive options I've never had a problem with it. It's absolutely not perfect, but If they just had taken the time to polish it and iron out the wrinkles, SM multiplayer could have been a blast for all 40k fans.

If the combat system is too simplified, skill ceiling will be lowered and people will get bored. Movement system should be rich and fluid, with evasive manouvers, combos and combo breakers(not too many or too long). We all know how proficient space marines are in close combat. But how likely that is to work in a live online PvP scenario I don't know. I have my doubts. I just hope they don't borrow too much from Gears, cause that has some of the most uninspiring melee I've played (apart from the executions and chainsawing).