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Comprehensive approach on balance

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rheeva, May 30, 2017.

  1. Rathael Rathael Arkhona Vanguard

    I like the rules but I am an impasse about discussing melee to ranged balance.

    I am a melee player but, if I am to follow the rules, I am unable to discuss any points regarding advantages that ranged classes have over melee classes.

    I do have one anti-melee point to make, however. I recently discovered that I was in fact able to reliably dodge out of defensive bash stuns:



    Clips 1 and 3 don't show it, since those were about being unable to perform the maneuver, but the rest clearly show how easily possible it is to avoid the long Dbash stun with careful use of fuel.

    This is problematic because of how low knife durability is. A tactical can only afford to trade 3 or 4 times against an impact-modded chainsword. If I am running at least 3 fuel (very easy to build in to with 1000 LP), I can easily escape 3 or more losing trades without taking any damage. With this in mind, it is extremely likely that I can simply break his weapon before he ever gets the chance to burn through my fuel and start doing damage to me.

    In the above situation, I could lose every melee trade and still win overall. It does take an enormous amount of time, but it puts the tactical in an impossible situation from which he can not escape. He can't even mix up his move-set because the correct response to fast-attack spam is bash.... which I can ignore with impunity.

    A good solution as we've mentioned before would possibly be to reduce the durability lost in a winning trade, so that spamming the same move over and over and losing all trades as a melee attacker does not result in a broken knife so soon.

    Moreover, the fourth clip showns an extremely dire situation: I was able to backstab the devastator before he was even capable of evading out of his Dbash kick animation. This was effectively completely free damage that he was unable to avoid... when making a winning trade against me. This should absolutely not happen. A winning trade should not result in me dealing damage to him.

    I do however like the interaction when the opponent can evade away from my attack after I escape his Dbash kick. This puts it in the realm of skill for both parties... although somewhat limited by how much stamina or fuel both sides have.
    Sily and Brujah like this.
  2. I'm sorry but the imbalance is killing this game for me and these are genuinely the things I feel are needed for LSM. all of us want to enjoy the game without raging over cheese or getting bored with being stuck to meta builds "no meta = what's the point" I also feel I should point out that I do enjoy playing as eldar and will play chaos with friends.
  3. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    Nice idea, OP. Hopefully enough people will get on-board that it won't be derailed as so many others before.

    What do people think about Plasma Cannon getting a slight direct damage buff, but keeping the falloff for its splash damage broadly the same as it is now?
  4. Lucius Vinicius JojoKasei Arkhona Vanguard

    The position "they can't fire back because they are all dead" sounds not that risky to me. And if others shoot back, just fly off laughing (especially easy if windows are involved). If like 80% of them would go down while/after doing this, I'd be absolutely fine with it. But it is more like 10% from my experience, all while happily taking out 2-4 people (out, not down). I will not talk about Zedek B (windows, partial roof, etc), that is hell/heaven respectively, but only a single location on a single map. Let them have their very sweet honeypot :).

    On Reaper Launcher:
    Starshot needs to be faster and a bit more AV damage would be nice. Splash damage is okay, but can be removed if it proves necessary for some reason. And Starswarm...just EVERYTHING should be changed (can't say much about it, tested it once, judged it Excommunicate Useless and went on).
    Sily likes this.
  5. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    I'm not a Hawk main, but I think the wingclip procs around 25% of the time. A more dedicated Hawk like @Orkan @Raptorfarian or @IdranelLives can maybe give more data from a position of experience.
    Eldritch likes this.
  6. Cabal Trainee CabalTrainee Arkhona Vanguard

    You rules stand directly against this.

    I play Eldar and Chaos mostly. If i was to say "the necrotic chainsword is OP" i would be calling for nerfs from eldar perspective. If i said "Starswarm is very weak" i would ask for a buff from Eldar perspective. So whatever i do regarding those 2 factions i break one of these rules.
    Sily likes this.
  7. Delgear Steam Early Access

    For me i see the games main problems as follows and all the weapon gripes come from not following the formula set forth for a TPS ::

    Weapons need to be in the following categories ::
    Cover deny (This includes indirect fire, bouncing fire, over cover fire, extreme range, through wall effects)Thing here is these weapons function well in indirect fights and they generally lose face to face confrontations.

    Flush weapons( sometimes also lumped in with non related weapons and called assault weapons, flush weapons are for chasing down enemies and pushing them out of a place when they are NOT dug in, Think bird dog, like shotguns, melee weapons, etc.)The key here is these weapons generally function well on the move and up close but do not function well far away.

    Trenching weapons (sometimes referred to as "suppression weapons" these weapons eliminate and prevent flushers from achieving their goals like ... the heavy bolter)Important thing here is these weapons function well when dug in and NOT when on the move.

    so basically with no class or role considered the metagame balance looks like this ::

    Cover Deny > Trenching > Flush > Cover Deny.

    This is the absolute CORE or TPS gameplay, it prevents grindfests at chokepoints to have excellent cover deny options to deploy to the field. This is currently the MOST under represented type of weapon in the game. There is also a grotesque over representation of trenching weapons in the game, and many trenching weapons also operate in the flush role better than they should. This is why despite every time the top dog trenching gun gets bopped with the nerf bat the meta remains the same trench v trench grindfests over points completely decided by single flanks, or lucky arty shots with the arty weapon being used as a trenching tool instead of a cover deny like its supposed to be.

    Second problem is Classes in this game are not unique in any way save thier weapon selection and a few small hp, toughness, armor trinks save maybe the JPA classes and a class with a shield ..... these classes we have need to fit into these metas too .... they need ABILITIES separate from thier equipment that make them fall into these categories. Also if a class can cross more than one of these roles we need to make sure they are committing to being mostly one role and a touch of another. Also many classes jobs do not lign up with thier techniques, for instance tactical is a mid to long range powerhouse yet thier JOB on the field requires them to go in close and fight in short range, this is why you see every tactical spending LP on grenades, CQC barrels, and sticking to everything that helps them in a CQC environment like the servo or guns that are performing aberrantly well in that range like the stalker(Which should be horrible in CQC by the by).

    There is also still a horrendous LP efficiency disparity between investing in damage and investing in survive-ability, generally speaking LP is drastically better spent on offense than it is on defense, save for a few high LP cost hogs that don't really do as well as thier cost entails. but in general you see almost every class taking the highest LP representation of thier desired weapon type AG/ace dakka/emperors grace in most cases what they give up in survive-ability is minuscule in relation to what they gain by committing to offense. Now sure theres outlyers ... most fist/claw users would argue pretty hard they are geting the shaft .... but LC vs vehicles ? AG still pretty much owns chaos long range choices, Rokkit launchers are STILL an incredibly popular xHW choice for orks. because to put it point blank there is no defense buyable for these weapons, theres no way to stop them even if you tried to make a build specifically to stop only ONE of these weapons you would only marginally improve you chances of survival against these weapons.

    Just to put it in perspective if you invest all your possible LP into armor regen delay someone with a BASELINE weapon will kill you 2 times over before that regen delay could kick in never mind while they are hitting you even if its infrequent you cant regenerate armor .... never mind the armor you have even if regenerated will likely be completely penned in 1-2 shots from almost every weapon. If you spend the same amount of LP over the default as their weapon costs at default you may only buy yourself a single or 2 measly hits from the weapon they pay no extra LP for. Your choices in this game outside what weapon to use feel almost completely meaningless and unimportant. You are actually better off making sure you have a grenade in your loadout than you are using 4 different pieces of equipment for the same LP ..... 4 defensive slots affect your performance added together less than just slapping a grenade on your loadout .....

    i want to put into perspective the fact that in the TT war game and the TTRPG and most video game properties ENTIRE UNITS fire on each other for longer than the time two dueling players shoot each other and yet less people die in relation to how much fire is in the air. the WH40k universe is a place of much more relatively speaking durable units than this game puts forth, and im not just talking about LSM EVERY faction save maybe the orks in every other property is generally tougher and can take more abuse than the game lets them, and lets face it we cant have the orks being like they are on TT nobody wants to die that fast so making them more like ard boys makes a lot of sense.

    For the record im ok with the current TTK for a naked barbarian build, but the amount of survive-ability buyable when investing is presently a complete ripoff.
    Brujah likes this.
  8. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    Interesting. I've seen you posit this stance before and it makes a great deal of sense. I'd wonder if you're maybe selling the system a little short, though. Off the top of my head I'd say there are plenty of class/weapon combos that fill each of these roles.

    I don't want to make any assumptions though, so perhaps we, the players of the game, can add each Class/Weapon combo into the various categories to see where we stand with it?

    I'll start off and people can offer opinions on better placements.

    COVER DENIER
    Swooping Hawk*
    Striking Scorpion
    JPA/Raptor/Stormboy
    Plasma Cannon
    Tempest Launcher
    Stalker Bolter*
    Grenades

    TRENCHER
    Heavy Bolter
    Autocannon
    Shuriken cannon
    Stalker Bolter*
    Reaper Launcher
    Lascannon
    Bolter/Shoota/ASC/rapid fire variants*
    Striking Scorpion (as suggested by @Delgear)

    FLUSHER

    Howling Banshee
    ShieldBro/ShieldBoy
    Nurgle GA
    Bolter/Shoota/ASC/rapid fire variants*
    Swooping Hawk * (as suggested by @Delgear)

    UNCATEGORISED/ALTERNATE ROLE

    Melta weapons
    Healers
    Lascannon (as suggested by @JojoKasei)

    *multirole

    Anyone got any thoughts for any I've missed, or ones that should be in other categories (give your reasoning please)?
    Sily likes this.
  9. Lucius Vinicius JojoKasei Arkhona Vanguard

    I think Lascannon should be in the "others" category, because while you certainly can snipe with them, doing so usually takes both you and your enemy out of the equation. You aim at him, he ducks, and then repeat. With the spread they gave that weapon you most likely won't even hit targets that don't take cover. So the only thing it is good at is AV.
    Brujah likes this.
  10. Most important fix for the game: fix the damn matchmaker already.

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