It's the whole fun gameplay vs lore thing but it seems most developers choose the fun gameplay that NEEDS to have as little to do as possible with the lore in order to be fun.

Just make gameplay that is fun with fits with the lore.

You, I like. I will happily destroy you in the name of chaos undivided! By you I mean a little carton representation of your choosing, not in the real world, I am not homicidal...just toonicidal.

Agreed.

Wait a sec...so you're saying playing smart is better than just running face first into a meat grinder? Very interesting I have heard something similar somewhere else...

For all of you talking about 1 second TTK the devs said they had like 6-7 seconds in the current build... the thing is you will almost never face a 1 vs 1 situation in a game that is meant to be a 200 vs 200, so the 6-7 seconds ttk in 1vs1 turns into 2 seconds or even less when you are in a combat heavy area...

Personally for a 40k game i like it, you need to take into account what will happen to melee classes if the ttk was just 0.7-8 seconds... yes, they will never make it into melee.

A 7 second TTK would be too far on the other side, making ranged classes useless because melee classes will be able to close distance 100% of the time. Partly because if it's 7 seconds at point blank, then even your entire ammo supply will not be enough to kill someone at a range a jump pack can't close.

Yes, technically you can reduce this by concentrating fire on a single target, but that means leaving other targets untouched while they close with you. Closing with a target that can mow you down in under a second may seem intimidating, but that's what jump packs are for. A jump pack not only allows you to cover ground at a high rate of speed, it also puts you on a parabolic trajectory that is more difficult for humans to track than the linear trajectory of a person running.

0.8 seconds on a 300 RPM weapon (which is the low end for a bolter, it'll probably be faster than that) is 4 bullets. For a 600 RPM weapon (still kind of slow as automatics go) it's obviously 8 bullets. If you land that on someone who's jump packing with either weapon, you very much deserve the kill.

Of course, since melee weapons don't have such a prodigous rate of fire they'd probably have to be 1-2 hit kills to be competitive... but a robust blocking system might be able to drag out such lethal melees.

A 7 second TTK for each of those weapons would be 35 bullets and 70 bullets respectively, which means you're probably going to be reloading. That's with 100% accuracy. Most people have 15%-30% accuracy when using automatic weapons in a combat situation. Assuming you're getting towards the higher end in close range, you'll need 105-210 bullets to secure a single kill, reloading a 30-round magazine 3-8 times. Hopefully this gives an idea of how positively crippling a long TTK can be for ranged classes.

This is one reason why there's a huge difference between TTK and TTL, but TTL is near-impossible to balance because it's 90% play style, 9.9% map design, and only 0.1% TTK.

Speaking of which, rate of fire is something we'll probably have to play with. The tabletop doesn't have a consistent time scale for us to go by, and seems to assume most weapons are fired in semi-auto or short bursts anyway. I've been trying to see if GW nailed down any "canon" RoFs, but I haven't managed to find much and what little I did find didn't make much sense. Apparently GW has some people who are math challenged.

I mean seriously, 200 RPM for a lasgun? Most people can pull the trigger faster than that. >_> That's gonna have to be retconned or written off as being specific to that model. I understand a laser weapon with a decent rate of fire would probably look like a continuous beam on full-auto, but come on.

Edit: I know I rambled a bit, but it's hard to communicate just how long 1 second is when in combat. Just about everyone here has probably played some kind of action game or other and probably knows the feeling, but it's so easy to overestimate how long a fight took. Let's just say there's a reason it feels like your frame rate plummets every time you get in a fight, even if you can have it displayed on screen and see it was steady.

long ttk only benefits the apothecary. speaking of which, i would rather they have a healing aura rather than a heal gun, so they can pew pew instead of being distracted by keeping team members alive.

off topic, hoping there will be some dark corners for night lords and raven guard to take advantage of also

The game should not be balanced around 1vs1, sure 7 seconds to kill a melee class while you are ranged seems to long, but you will have other melee from your own faction to protect you, you can be at cover or inside building... to be honest we really need to know the map and base design before we can talk in depth about it but in papper sounds good to me.

"They're statistically going to need 200+ bullets to kill me? Seems legit." You're planning to play a melee class aren't you? >_>

Holy s*** now that you put it that way sounds really dumb... maybe it was the melee vs melee ttk? gonna check the vod again but i'm sure they said 6-7 seconds. I'm plan to play whatever it's best for the situation, as i always do in this kind of games

You're arguing realism which, while I'm not saying you are wrong, is a terrible thing to do in a videogame and in 40k especially. Remember the "Feel No Pain" rule that medics or Nurgle can provide on the tabletop- what point does it have? I can't feel the massive gaping hole in my chest through all of my internal organs? Oh cool, so I can keep fighting then. THIS IS THE WORLD WE ARE PLAYING IN

It never made sense in the first place but this is what we've got to work with. I think the right way to go about this would be, especially with the implied rank structure that this game will work with, a tactical game of rock-paper-scissors.

For example, you've got your average pile of dudes dug in on a hilltop with heavy support fire guns and maybe even something snazzy like a mortar or an MGL for maximum infantry destroying. Common sense says IRL, these guys are going to reenact the Somme or Paschendale on anyone who tries to get up there by foot. IRL, the correct solution would be to either call in heavy armored support that can weather the dakka or call an airstrike or artillery barrage to level the murderhole. In Warhammer, more often than not you'll simply have human (or alien) wave tactics of throwing more and more people at the position in retarded attempts to crack it open.

Now, for anyone but seriously happy-go-lucky Ork F2P players this would be a pretty much torturous way of trying to take a fortified position which is why nobody will want to take the front of the attack. Running up there is stupid, that's just common sense. So what to do? Well, this creates an uncomfortable situation due to two factors: the attackers can't easily attack and as a result of that, the defenders who took their time to set that up don't get to gun people down (because they have a brain). How would you solve that?

Well, I'd solve it by the aforementioned rock-paper-scissors thing. Can't do the frontal attack? Call jump troops, they fly in and cause mayhem so you can get the main force to storm the building. Or call in a tank or a vehicle that is fast enough or heavily armored enough to get through the hail of fire unscathed and deliver a load of fighters right to the enemies' doorstep.

Of course, when they're really good, the defenders have AT-weapons to stop those sorts of charges. And if they're really good, they may even have FlaK-setups that can quickscope flying jump pack units right out of the sky one after the other. You'll have to get creative, and that's exactly the kind of thinking I'd want to encourage here.

The solution isn't to get anal about the TTK. The solution is to ged gud@gaem. Think more and sledgehammer less.