So... what if the melee animation was a buttstroke instead of a knife? Is it still game breaking? Is it game breaking that a heavy weapon can instantly melee?

And a melee user can instantly fire their pistol while using melee. So what you've got is (instant good range + instant ok melee) vs (instant ok ranged + instant good melee). Yes a knife user can kill a dedicated melee, but that dedicated melee user can pistol kill at ranged.

For sure there are balance issues, but the weapon swap doesn't seem like a real problem.

-Buttstroke would be different than a knife and not as lethal.
-The knife as you see in the video is applying poison, that's not going to happen via buttstroke.
- The heavy weapon strikes aren't anywhere nearly as lethal as a knife strike. Eldar knives do 92% damage of Ork and Space Marine swords just FYI. Plague knife applies poison and does damage.

-A melee user has a sword, axe, maul or fist in their right hand a pistol in their left hand.
-Of course they can instantly fire their pistol, IT'S ALREADY IN HAND dude.
-That's the advantage of having a melee weapon in one hand and a pistol in the other. You're basically making my point for me. The Bolter user has BOTH HANDS on the Bolter, the Bolter is shouldered and the player is aiming while the knife is maglocked or sheathed to their hip.
-By allowing the Bolter user to instantly melee attack with thier Bolter in both hands we're taking away the advantage the Sword and Pistol user should have in close combat.
-It's interesting to note that all other transitions and actions in game have proper delays and animations EXCEPT FOR BOLTER TO KNIFE.
-Having a proper delay and animation when going from 2 handed mode of combat to a secondary weapon is logical. If I have two hands on a Thunderhammer and I'm bashing your face in would it be fair if a pistol magically appeared in my hand a millisecond later and I blasted your face off without any delay or weapon swap animation as you started winding up a Dbash animation? No it would not. Why then is it okay to do the same with Bolter to knife?

So maybe your problem isn't the transition, it's how lethal it is. You stated the heavy weapon isn't a problem because of that, so why does the tactical require a different solution?

You're trying to back up your criticism of a gameplay mechanic with the real world, but honestly I think you have no clue what you're talking about. Knives are fast, and maybe you're stuck on the idea of a marine using a ka-bar, but the majority of blades I've seen in a fight are either convenient/inauspicious for carry, or a stiletto/dagger for the serious (for north/western, lot of curved blades in the middle east, and machetes everywhere else).

So you're going to say knives don't get drawn that fast, and I'm going to tell you they do. Real knife fights are fast, bloody, and stupid because it's the weapon for when plans A through C got fucked up and you're in real trouble.

Now should rifles be able to fire immediately after using a knife? That's a different discussion dealing with dbashes, and that's ok, because it's based on a real gameplay mechanic, not a faux pas idea of how fights work.

But knives get drawn that fast, and you're trying to impose a restriction that reduces melee interaction, not increase it, which goes against resolving the melee problems in game.

Thanks for making my point. "Knives get drawn". Where's that animation of the knife being drawn out because I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing it because it's not happening. We go from firing the bolter with our finger on the trigger to knife attacking instantly.

Out of curiosity are you okay with the Bolter to Bolt Pistol animation and delay? Why would that delay be there? So if that's okay and injects some "realism" and fairness or balance into the equation how is it okay that the same exact animation that actually draws the knife and pistol isn't used when going from Bolter to knife?

You're also apparently okay with the fact that you can be triggering a strong attack, have the strong attack already triggered and in motion towards me and I can go from firing my Bolter at you to instantly fast attacking with my knife and shut down your strong attack AFTER you're 3/4 of the way through the strong attack animation.

Am I really asking for something that's outrageous of off the wall? What I'm simply asking for is consistency and logical outcomes.

What we have now with being able to transition instantly from shooting bolter to melee knife strikes is inconsistent compared to other weapon swaps and other RPS animations and it's illogical that we dont see the transition happening along with an appropriate animation and delay.

Sorry, let me expand. Real knife fighters draw knives fast and you probably won't see it coming. The closest I can think of is the makarov speed holster (which draws by pushing down and cocks the pistol at the same time) and even that isn't the same type of gross muscle action. You can add an animation frame for it, but it really is that fast.

Also would be comfortable with speeding up bolter to bolt pistol. You train speed for that. Primary jams or runs out (because you weren't tracking stupid) you don't run through a stoppage drill in the middle of a 30m shootout. You drop your rifle on its sling and pull pistol to keep rounds downrange. Is the pistol draw as fast as a knife? No, it requires more fine motor control to make the most of it, and that slows you down, but it should still be fast.

I think the problem there is that a released strong attack can be stopped by a fast attack at all. Strong attacks should be vulnerable in the charging up, not in the attack itself. Little bit of a piss off that I can charge an axe and be swinging when a powersword cuts through it. That has nothing to do with bolter to knife animations and everything to do with the timing of melee.

None of that addresses the issue of the lost advantage the Sword and Pistol user should have over a tactical in close combat as far as transitioning from Pistol to Sword to Pistol because those weapons are already in each hand. That advantage is lost because the Bolter user can transition just as fast from Bolter to knife to Bolter even though the knife is sheathed or maglocked on their hip, belt or thigh.

All these little advantages Tacs have in CQC add up and are contributing to the vast power gap between ranged and melee.

I dont see what's with the resistance to implementing a mechanic that's logical and makes sense. The total lack of any transition time or weapon swap animation is completely illogical. It's out of the norm for EC compared to all the other animations and is clearly causing an imbalance as shown in the videos.

How the hell did the Eldar community end up getting so triggered? Mention a heap of classes, no one objects. Mention an Eldar class as well, everyone looses there minds!

I tried to slog through the whole video.

However, what constitutes CQC to you Njord? Melee range? 10m? 5m? This is important.

You think there should be some sort of advantage for sword/pistol. But,

Real life knives do come out that fast, and real combat that breaks down to melee doesn't look like that anyways.

There's no gameplay reason to implement it. Melee has access to instant ranged, and you're imposing a restriction that inhibits melee combat, not encourages it. You want players to want to switch to melee, not shy away from it.

And what's the end state you're trying to achieve? That tacticals need to switch to knife/pistol a second before rather than in the moment? What's the interim? Will tacticals not be able to melee while using a boltgun, or do they get a buttstroke? Is reduced damage for that going to make it better? Why can't we just reduce knife damage while the boltgun is equipped? And what about when people figure out that the bolt pistol is as good at close quarters as the boltgun? I don't understand why the dedicated melee users can't figure out they can dbash and pistol kill the same as a tactical can?

Maybe the knife is too fast on the swing. A lot of its flaws are negated by that, same as how the powersword is a meta king because of swing speed despite the lower clang. But instead you're focusing on an animation frame that really, if you add it the question becomes "why don't I just buttstroke the guy instead?"

Your perceived imbalance is an opinion, and one that I disagree with. There are other issues affecting balance, and it's not deployment speed. Your change will only shift the issue to pistols, not solve the problems in melee. And as for your realism argument, knives come out that fast. Stop thinking of a marine with a kabar, because they don't knife fight, real knife fights are fast. Also if we go for realism it's a mozambique and your dedicated melee guy is dead, so maybe don't go there.

Ok just because you're getting into this "The knife is sheathed" thing. What about Orks? We wear our spiked knuckles on the hand we use to hold the front of the shoota.