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Can we have a honest talk about the Mark of Nurgle?

Discussion in 'Chaos Space Marines' started by Ecaja, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. Mkoll Oan-Mkoll Steam Early Access

    Mh I think those Marks are pretty balanced as a whole but not for each class

    MoN is like good for every Ranged class
    the MoS works really good on the melee classes and on the tacticals, if you are good with the strafing it provides more ehp than an MoN could

    MoT is only good on regen builds for Veterans but there is real good

    MoK is really good in a paperbag and thrown in a thrashcan afterward, this needs some work :)
  2. Necromancer Rivindesh Subordinate

    Everyone chooses Nurgle because the others are obsolete right now ttk is still low. Khorne is semi decent but awful on ticket maps. Slaanesh was good on melee, but that has since been replaced by the range heavy meta. Tzeentch is just bad in general unless one plan's to do the challenge token sorcerer.

    Nerfing the mark of Nurgle isn't the awnser, rather it should be reworking the other marks. Perhaps we could even have other variations.

    Rune of Tzeentch: Upon death emerge as a Blue Horror with the ability to revive oneself after 30 seconds at the cost of having reduced maximum health.

    Rune of Khorne: Executions grant +10 maximum health at the cost of not being healable by a sorcerer.

    Rune of Slaanesh: Executions restores one to full health and grants a hysteria buff at the cost of armor regen.

    Marks need to have substantial abilities for their costs and right now Nurgle has the ability to give the most without asking for much, just some disease in your lungs.
  3. Aren't Nurgle Marines by default supposed to be sluggish beefcakes?
  4. Khornatian Khornatian Steam Early Access

    Generally I would rather advocate buffs to others, rather than nerfs to things that aren't exactly overpowered. Nurgle bearers are in a good spot and eclipse most others due to the extremity of the meta, but they are far from insurmountable.
    DerelictHeretic and Gravewalker like this.
  5. Put me in the camp of not nerfing MoN, but rather making the other marks more attractive. 1.3 made me switch from using MoT as I was of the duck and cover and recover type mentioned earlier in this thread. But with TTK going down and with the improvements to MoN I had to make the switch in almost all my builds.

    Yet in light of the bolter cannon and the skull of power I feel that I am dying as fast if not faster. Don't just look at this in a vacuum think of what other aspects were added in 1.3. Pen was brought up to be at least 100 for all weapons as well chipping away at that value of that 30 toughness in a lot of situations.

    And yeah we got the nurgle nade.. big whoop. I can count the number of times I have seen it use on one hand. And in reality I don't think it's any better than a good frag. With the number of Apoc's running around with their heal beacons so bloody numerous I wonder how many people have died to it.

    Any way, the MoN's only sin is that it is decent, it's not game breaking and it is not making us OP. unlike the skull of power that the LSM have.

    I am not against changes to the MoN and the gods ruin know that the other marks need more appeal. But it doesn't make sense to nerf MoN which is in a good place at the moment to achieve that goal.
  6. IshanDeston Ecaja Steam Early Access

    2 reasons...

    First and Foremost, because the entire idea behind the Marks, as they are currently in the game seems to be "You gain something for losing something".

    You gain Armor regeneration, but you lose health. You get speed but you loose Armor regeneration... and so on and so forth.

    And i do not feel that Mark of Nurgle's gains are offset by what you lose for it. Thus i would like a different set of downsides for it.

    Now why it has to be that way? If i'd know that, i'd get paid by the Dev. It wouldn't have been my first approach to it, but i can see why they do that... and that is because....

    Reason two. Much lesser and only really a consideration based on the fact that i do not want to play something overpowered. I want something that is competitive with the other factions and i play all the factions. So ...

    While i would prefer a meaningful buff.. and i have given suggestions for that (see for example moving the Raptor stuff over to Mark of Tzeentch and giving them a few more goodies based on the Lord of Change... maybe Wings instead of jump packs. Maybe the wings could give a limited Swooping Hawk effect allowing for a bit more airtime, before you come crushing down.

    I also suggested a Heat Grenade akin to the poison grenade for Khorne. I suggested a totem that boosts melee in a radius.

    Its not that i do want just nurgle nerfed... at the same time i want the others buffed. Bring Nurgle a bit down, bring the others a bit up, and meet halfway in the middle.. because just overpowering everything by reducing downsides is just not a viable approach.

    Like it or not, but CSM are pretty much comparable with LSM. And while i feel LSM have to many goodies currently, i do at the same time not believe that CSM should just get piled on with goodies. Markes already set them ahead of what LSM are capable, if we disregard the rest of the wargear. LSM doesn't have anything that makes them move faster or gives them such a big Armor regeneration boost as CSM do.

    But i am not here to advocate from the position of a player that doesn't play CSM. I am here from the position of a CSM player that feels its unfair that i am pretty much gatewayed into Mark of Nurgle. I feel its unfair MoN gets a pleague knife and a Plague Grenade.. i feel its unfair they get toughness with barely any downside. I don't want to play MoN and i want goodies too!

    Their spells seems to be better as well... Which admittedly is mostly born out of the fact that i have no means to compare what each spell actually does and if the Boon of Change i am running around with, and the pain i am going through to play a MoT Sorcerer in the current Meta is actually worth it.

    And on the receving end.. it doesn't seem like Flickering Flame is nearly as good as the offensive Spell that MoN gets.

    Slaanesh seems to get an okay offensive spell, downing people in 4ish hits.. but half of the time the heal doesn't seem to work.

    So yeah... ideally i want to bring MoN a bit down and the others up, so that each Mark is a proper choice, with equal amounts of goodies. If Nurgle gets a Plague Knife.. then the other marks should get their equivalent as well. Either everyone gets equally something special, or no one gets something special. And i prefer the former to the later.

    I do not agree. Just like i do not agree with the Eldar complaining about how their Banshee's should get Powerfists and whatnot. I am here to play WH40k. If i want a generic shooter, i'll play a generic shooter. So either its lorethematically correct or bust.

    Yep.. so what? Just a few lines ago, you went all like "Nerfing mark of nurgle would only leave all of them in shambles"... so obviously you agree that the other 3 aren't worth taking... so it needs a rework. You disliking that i suggested the rework, doesn't change the fact that the current meta requires them to look at it again.

    And i do really suggest anything that isn't in the game. You could take the Swooping Hawk wings and give them a basic leather texture. You don't necessarily need them to flap, although i suppose it would be cool. And you can take the Nurgle Grenade, slide the color from green to red, and you have a bloodmist that gives heatdamage... and you can take the servo skull mechanic and, plant 9 of them into a pile, and have everyone entering it have a red waagh SFX to show they have boosted Melee.

    Admittedly the Wings are the biggest thing, but its not like most of the stuff would require a lot of rework.

    2 patches ago, i logged in and had to redo a bunch of my Loadouts because they changed something... if resetting our AP is the worst problem we'll have... then i see no reason not to do it. 5 minutes of inconvience to get 4 worthwhile mark choices instead of one? Yes, please!

    And i am sure they have the same LP figure calculated to how much -0,25% movement speed is. Why? Because they have a value for +0,25% movementspeed on not only Mark of Slaanesh, but also the Eldar Reaper skill that gives movement speed. So they have to have a value for movement speed.

    To me it is a fact that -60% Stamina regeneration is not equal to -60% armor regeneration.

    I think that is a solid suggestion. Thank you for typing it out.

    Pretty much the same reason why i refuse to take MoN. CSM cannot be a faction balanced around MoN!
  7. Belphegor LordSloth Preacher

    Its good that the discussion finally gets to the core of the problem. I think there are 3 different levels of argument in this discussion and not all have an easy fix.

    Level 1: We both agree that every God Mark should be viable, have a purpose and add its own flavour.
    Level 2: We both agree that we are both fed up with the MoN beeing dominant, simply because it is the only one giving defensive stats.
    Level 3: We disagree on how to fix it. You wish to add more downsides to it while buffing the rest to create a chaos wide harmonized playingfield. I don't see much point in that because it would (unless every Mark gets a flat out defensive bonus) still not cure the problem (people take still MoN unless it is really bad) while putting us at a disadvantage against every other faction. Radically thought you could even cut down its bonus and debuff to half and people would still pick a 15 hp 10 toughness MoN over any of the other Marks.

    While i admire your zeal in playing something wh40k'ish down to the last letter of the universe i must say that the game should have some basic balance for all factions. Afterall our Orks are most likely all Nobs since they can go toe to toe with an Astartes.

    The majority of the f2p players and even a good portion of the current playerbase would rather have a fair playingfield instead of beeing 100% loreaccurate. Especially since the wh40k lore is often enough iffy aswell and changes between editions and authors while still leaving 100ths of open loopholes and inconsistancies. Someone on Discord who is one of the biggest lorenerds i know wondered how grav weapons i.e. are such a big thing on this world and how certain weapontypes which are in the lore rare and spare are here on every second tactical. I guess this is part of the compromise beween "how it could be and how it must be in order to work".

    My baseline is: If you change MoN dont break it by tryharding "to make it in line with the rest of the crap" and give us other tankyness options on the other Marks to keep us on eye to eye with Orks and LSM.

    This flat out defence boost to all marks is in the current format hardly possible since MoK has just one value to modify, namely lifesteal while the other is a 0 or 1 value. To compensate for more HP by reducing Lifesteal would break it, so you would need to add another debuff to it - maybe armor reg debuff to compensate for more health. MoT is flat out bad and would need a complete new set of ideas and stats, -HP are a no go. MoS, if it had 20-30 Defstats on it, would probably lose 1/3rd or half its runspeed buff in the process to compensate. This would still rock.
  8. pinky EternalPink First Blood!

    I'm not sure I understand the logic going on here, MoN is so popular as the benefits of the other marks are not very significant/worth it so we want to make the mark that is popular worse so that people use other marks?

    MoK - life steal is so small it will not help you keep going (once upon a time life steal via weapon mod was overpowered and if you could keep attacking you could keep tanking/healing - to my knowledge never happened on MoK)

    MoS - movement speed increase, doesn't allow you to compete with elder as you would expect and only really of a benefit to melee players which are now in decline due to the advantages ranged have in melee

    MoT - faster armor regen as I recall which I've heard people say is good on raptor but as raptors are now a rarity due to the range/melee issue less popular, was good on ranged once with the flag as you got extra damage but i'd think now any extra damage is countered by you dying faster with the health debuff

    Steel shard - found this quite good on a melee character so maybe the one other sort of mark to use except it has 210 LP cost so is more expensive than MoN

    Instead of changing MoN to make it worse making the other marks worth using is a better solution (seems a regular theme on these boards to make something worse so people will use other stuff)
    Gravewalker likes this.
  9. IshanDeston Ecaja Steam Early Access

    I think that is a good summery, but my reason to make the thread was not to propose a fix... my reason to start the thread is starting a discussion on the subject and hearing peoples opinions on how to fix it. My opinion on the matter isn't more or less valid than the next CSM player.

    And all Eldar are Exarchs and all LSM are sergeants and all CSM are Champions.

    Your run of the mill CSM doesn't exactly gain favor with the gods. I don't need it to be down to the last letter of the universe, but there is a point where stuff stops being CSM and being just LSM by a different name with spiky bits.

    Nor would it be fair to the other factions, nor would i want that. I don't need the toughness bonus. And i don't need to run around with 150-160 toughness. I am perfectly fine with MoN giving toughness as its bonus. What i am not fine with is that all the other marks have a downside, while MoN's is pretty much negligible, and that all the goodies are with MoN.

    I sort of agree... and sort of don't. I think MoT wouldn't be so bad if it converted that HP into Armor. You'd still have less armor and would have to rely more on cover, but it wouldn't reduce the overall hit pool, that seems to be balanced on the idea of how fast a CSM can move. I actually would go as far as to convert 50% of the health into Armor.

    To sum it up and bring it to a point:
    I like @KorgasTheReforged suggestions and I don't care if people agree with my take on how to fix this. More important to me is that we find something we can agree on and the fact that it gets fixed. And then maybe get a dev in here to talk about making it happen, because the situation as it is.. is not enjoyable.

    And give the other marks goodies, but yes that was my idea.... i assume whoever of the Devs came up with these ideas balanced them against whatever metric they have. I like to believe that they didn't put up a dart board and threw darts at it, selecting randomly what they give these marks.

    Personally i think it would be easier to say "lets change this one down side for another downside, and then focus on giving the other marks unique goodies" than going "really this one mark is fine with barely any downside, and we want the other marks also to have no real downside as well".

    Really? I have yet to see that decline. Each and every game i play has more than 50% of Melee Classes around. Maybe i am just incredibly lucky/unfortunate (depending on how you want to look at it)... then again, of course if i listen to people on this forum its pretty much that melee players are like the Wolpertinger of Eternal Crusade now.

    As i said in the havoc thread, i like it on my Heavy Bolter Havoc for siege defenses. If you have a Sorcerer to heal you, the brief lul in battle is all you need to get all your armor back.

    Is imho a more realistic approach than to advocate to make something potentially OP.
    KorgasTheReforged likes this.
  10. pinky EternalPink First Blood!

    Each to there own, an approach that makes everything equally worthless just means that people won't equip a mark and will spend the 150 LP elsewhere to my mind and OP compared to what? we don't fight each other outside of the garrison so the marks need to be balanced for the advantage they give verse the races we fight who have there own advantage from there own racial bonus'/abilities

    So as I said increase the marks people don't use so people will use them rather than advocating a race to the bottom
    LordSloth likes this.

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