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Can we have a honest talk about the Mark of Nurgle?

Discussion in 'Chaos Space Marines' started by Ecaja, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. IshanDeston Ecaja Steam Early Access

    I expect to be shouted down for this... but could we maybe nerf Mark of Nurgle a little? Maybe give Mark of Nurgle a negative movement modifier.... i mean they are supposed to be a bit more laborsome...

    I know, i know..

    but really isn't anyone else sick of the fact that its pretty much Mark of Nurgle as the only viable of all options? In the current game mechanic all the good things are with Nurgle. A good offensive spell, a decent AOE Heal with damage reduction... poison grenades... boatload of additional toughness... and all for what? Stamina recharge reduction? That doesn't seem like its enough of a downside.

    Admittedly, i don't use it, not only does it feel a bit like cheating but also i never was a fan of Nurgle. I am mostly using Mark of Tzeentch and Slaanesh, but i do not feel like those two are rewarding....and lets not even talk about the Mark of Khorne.

    How about Mark of Khorne gives a heat grenade? Or a Skull totem that buffs Melee damage in an area. Instead of the LSM servo skull buffing all damage, this totem could buff melee...

    And Mark of Tzeentch... why isn't there anything good in there? Okay.. Slaanesh seems to have cornered the market on Raptors, even though when i think of slaanesh i think of Noisemarines.. and that sounds more like "heavy" to me... but oh well. Wouldn't it more sense that the Chaos God that has a BIRD and actual flyers would be more for Raptors? And yet Mark of Slaanesh doesn't seem to go well with Heavies due to the slower armor regeneration.

    I mean if i think of the Chaos Marines its Berserkers for Khorne (Ground Assault), its Tacticals (Thousand Sons and Plaguemarines) for Tzeentch and Nurgle, its Noise Marines (heavies) for Slaanesh.

    I just feel the Mark of Nurgle is to good, compared to the other marks. And i also don't get the reduced health on Mark of Tzeentch... I want the marks to be an equal choice...


    And why not make the Marks more akin to the Champion of Chaos rule from the Tabletop? I mean we already track kills and assists... so why not have the Marks grow stronger depending on your contribution?

    Say you have the Marks go into effect at a score of 500... with a fourth of their current value.. and get stronger by 25% every 500 score. So at 2000 you'd have the current value.. at 4000 it would be double what you get right now.

    Or you could negate the downsides based on score. Tzeentch gets health back, Slaanesh gets faster armor regeneration, Nurgle gets faster movement speed... Khorne also gets movement speed.. and maybe more melee damage..

    Just mark of nurgle is boring...
  2. Khornatian Khornatian Steam Early Access

    Mark of Nurgle might be interesting if it actually slowed the movementspeed of the wearer - but only if its toughness was buffed to like 80.
    Algernon, Mandulis and DrDooManiC like this.
  3. LewisCowface Lewiscowface Steam Early Access

    I was thinking the same. I use to play mostly as LSM but like to play as Chaos too... and when I do so It is like there is only Nurgle on the battleground with me as the only Khorne/slaanesh Chaos Marine.
  4. Caentyr Caentyr Subordinate

    the thing with marks is that they shouldn't be a total commitment to the chaos god. It's not right to do. Now if we were talking plague marines (slower speed, but really high health), rubric marines (Armor bonus that gets bigger the closer you are to a sorcerer) noise marines, (Havocs that shoot a stronger version of the HB's "scream" debuff) or Khornate berserkers ( Cannot be healed by sorcery and would have NO access to primary weapons, only secondary (pistols) and melee would partialy heal and get a temporary speed buff for every MELEE kill or execution you get.) I would understand. but just because of the symbol doesn't mean it's COMPLETE commitment to nurgle as all of the chaos marines currently are undivided.
  5. IshanDeston Ecaja Steam Early Access

    The point is that Mark of Nurgle is to good. All the goodies are with mark of Nurgle. Even its downside is no downside, because Space Marines aren't exactly Eldar and constantly dodging around the place, their dodge range isn't enough.. and 30 additional toughness is a substantial damage mitigation of almost 15%... and you lose a bit of stamina regeneration... stamina you most likely used to dodge into cover and then can just remain in cover as your stamina recharges... thats no real downside for receiving almost 15% less damage.

    There needs to be a proper downside, especially given that you also get access to a poison grenade, a special poison dagger and whatever else i am forgetting. There are only goodies for Nurgle Marines.. Not even the Chainaxe is restricted to Khorne.

    +80 toughnes is to much. That would mean you can get to 210 toughness with Demonforge armor. That would be a 0,41 mitigation on a pen 100 weapon. It would be THE go to outfit against Eldar.

    But.. how about +80 toughness and -50% heat resist.... it would mean Nurgle would have to fear Fire based damage from Melta's and such... Of course that would mean the Eldar would probably need a few ammo upgrades to make it fair, to give their weapons a minor heat dot... but other than that.. the LSM have Heavy Meltas and the Las Cannon that does heat damage...

    Mark of Khorne a 25% melee damage buff might be a bit much, especially with our access to the Necrotic Chainsword that poisons even on a parry. But then again... you could restrict that weapon from being taken with Mark of Khorne, seeing as Poison would be 'dishonorable'.

    Mark of Slaanesh, the idea of friendly fire healing is interesting, potentially unbalanced, tho to the point where everyone would use MoS... Maybe have the healing just be enough to soak up the damage of the friendly fire? But that potentially opens up the possibility of grenade spamming capture points while a MoS marine captures.



    But something else:

    Can you imagine how amazing it would be if Mark of Tzeentch would give you a Wing Upgrade, that actually gave you Wings on a Raptor?

    I mean i am not even talking about necessarily giving access to mechanics like the Swooping Hawks... but just instead of the Jump Packs make the jump via leathery demon wings.. or birdwings with rainbow feathers like the Lord of Change...
    KorgasTheReforged likes this.
  6. Chaos player here, and yes, Nurgle is powerfull with basically no downside (unless you play JPA or want something that is tied to another mark) There is no reason to NOT take the Mark of Nurgle with your character. It's the most straight-forward Mark you can have.

    I also suggest a movementspeed penality, and/or like @Djemo-SRB once suggested a "windup" time until you reach full sprinting-speed.

    All other marks have disadvantages, that you really feel. And in times where TTK is so low, Nurgles blessings are allready the best you can get, together with -60% stamina recharge, that nobody needs as melee is dorked... that's too powerfull, i admit. No shouting from my side @Ecaja :D
    Algernon, Whitefox550 and Ecaja like this.
  7. AS main here... and YES, i'd like if ol Tzeentch would give us more then just a +10 Warpcharge if we pick his necklace... The god of sorcery fails to make sorcerers better... jiihaaa...
    Bugz likes this.
  8. Belphegor LordSloth Preacher

    No need to shout you down. Your idea is just bad. There is no need to modify something which is statswise right in the area where it should be. I know most LSM players will usually jump in and proclaim that toughness is so broken and that those 30 extrapoints toughness make a MoN tactical unkillable. Sadly this is all LSM-faction chat truth and holds mathematically no water.

    The main problem with the MoN is that the other Marks are just bad and are not a real alternative because they underperform drastically compared to the options other factions can pick - ironically because they focus on one thing and come with a drawback while in the current low TTK meta only survivability counts.

    The MoN might be dominant, which is very annoying for us chaosplayers because every character looks the same and the whole fluff of fighting for differnt chaos gods is overboard, but compared to the other factions - especially LSM and Orks the MoN on a tactical is in line with the seal of medicae and the gobs. The time to kill with similar loadouts is spot on 11 bolter rounds to kill. No matter if you are a fancy Ultramarine with a seal of medicae and your Gold T3 armor or a Black Legionaire with MoN and Gold T3 or a Shoota with Gold T3 and Iron Gob.

    Back to your idea in general and why it is bad: restricting the ability to use weapons and peppering the Marks with major downsides will most likely break the chaos loadouts for good. I can be a big fan of immersion and i also see the point in feeling special however all the other factions have no "either/or" approach on their wargear and if you want to "flavour" them with negatives you will quickly have the same situation you have now - just that ontop our former strongest option is broken. No matter how you modify the options for Wargear slot 1 It will always be an either-or choice. This is the case for spacemarines and their 30 HP trinket or the orks with their go to iron gob.

    Theoretically speaking if they would boost Health and ranged Lifesteal on the MoK, you would see that at a certain point people would pick it over MoN. Same happened with MoS before the TTK nerf.

    MoN prior to 1.3 was only a starter option for new players when it came to tacticals. More buffer for mistakes and slower reaction times were the reason for that. The majority of the veterans prefered either MoS for the runspeed advantage and flanking (since before Patch 1.3 is was not an issue to get instantly killed) or MoT for the duck and recharge mechanic as they knew how much risk they could take before it was time for a retreat and stacking Armor regen actually was worth it with the bigger buffer (since the value of returning quickly to a fight or killing someone and recharging was far more attractive then a flat out bigger EHP Pool).

    Patch 1.3 broke this meta and left all Marks apart from MoN in a bad spot. With the lack of survivability the majority of all players will go with MoN and Gold Armor - spending most of their LP needlessly and boringly on survivability (like it is now common on all factions) to not even get an advantage but to not be at an disadvatage with the exspected harmonized standard builds of all factions. This radiates even further into the (absence of the) wargear 2 slot and most of the builds out there. Since you are forced to spend big chunks of your LP on survivability and weaponmods and maybe consumeables, Mastercrafted Weapon (which add little value) & WG2 (only recharge focussed) are amongst trinkets (value is histerically insignificant 1 armor, really?) the first sacrifice to the LP god.

    Last but not least i want to mention something people generally tend to graciously overlook. Chaos has -1- additional semi-Tank option for wargear slot 1 and that is a bad 20 Armor + Armor regen fixed piece which is not worth the insame LP (due to the low real value of armor regen - you must survive to reg something) cost attached to it. If you break the MoN you might want to add a nice 30 HP or Armor trinket there and 50 Armor alternative ontop and call us LSM. That would be only fair afterall.
  9. IshanDeston Ecaja Steam Early Access

    That is already the case. Just since MoN has no downsides worth mentioning, nobody feels those restrictions. MoN gets grenades, the unique combat knife, just to name two, on top of a hefty toughness bonus, and if you like it or not those 30 points of toughness are 13% of damage reduction.

    I don't care about Orks or Spacemarines... i am not talking about them. I am talking about Chaos Spacemarines and the fact that there is no alternative to mark of Nurgle, because Nurgle gets all the goodies and no downsides. Unless of course you want to make a case for how deliberating a slower Stamina generation is.

    And nothing of that is relevant as we are well into 1.3 and there is no indication that the TTK will change. So... how about we talk about fixing the situation?

    So far all you've done is reject the suggestion of giving MoN a proper downside or buffing the other Marks to make them a viable choice. I am not hearing you makeing any better suggestions on how to fix it... unless of course your idea of a fix is somehow rolling back to the pre 1.3 TTK, which doesn't seem to happen... so...

    So...... bottom line.. we nerf MoN.. and add a 30 Hp trinket. Gotcha. That was a long winded way of saying that.
  10. Belphegor LordSloth Preacher

    The restrictions are already there and they are bad. Why is the defining factor of the Marks that they have to be bad or force players to behave a certain way? The 30 points of toughness are nice, without a question but they don't add anything for us compared to adding armor or health aslong as it is not enough to bring us over the threshold to survive an additional bullet. That is why I (in the current meta) dislike those hybriditems why bring armor and armor regen for a hefty LP cost. Those relations are not realistic anymore which makes those items underperforming and unaffordable. However I do not think that a major LP and subsequently AP revamp of any fashion will be in the cards for the near future.


    So if you are not advertising for another race, why would you want that our only viable Mark gets nerfed instead of requesting a meaningfull buff to others so we actually get a choice? Your suggestion would only leave every Mark in shambles and weaken for our faction the quiet strong Wargear 1 slot which offers a plethora of very clean defensive tools for other factions.

    Restricting goodies to Marks as lorethematically correct as it might be is still a bad idea because there is no such limit on other factions and for the player experience limits the available options. I dont see why there could be a venom knife, a warp fireaxe, a warp (poison) grenade or a chaos rune inscribed heavy bolter for all followers of the dark gods. Especially if the developers dont plan to invest the time to outfit all cults equally (with a grenade a knife an axe and a bolter equally).


    I told you that your idea was bad and i strongly disagree and i gave you my reasons for it aswell. In your first post you basically requested a "chaos" rework, with a full batch of fresh mods/items ontop to support it. This is very unlikely to happen since it would also require to reset our APs again and they have their eyes on so many other things to start with such a radical and big approach.

    Without this rework however there is no point in breaking the only working Mark. Every other Mark you currently can equip (apart from MoN) puts you automatically at a disadvantage (you are 1 hit faster to kill) against the standard LSM or Ork cookie cutter builds. If you advertise that you can also advertise for us to lose our gold armor.

    I am not fixated on this specific mark at all (and in all honesty i am annoyed that it is the only viable option, before 1.3 i had it maybe on 2 loadouts and now i have maybe a total of 5 loadouts without it) if they want to tweak it i am fine with it, but the problem is that they can not fix them in their current form. To tie them into the wargear 1 slot with the surivability options was just bad. Mind you it was ofc as bad as artificially creating huge downsides to allow for a bigger itembudget on the also huge upsides. This always leads to combinations where one or the other is not worth it and hence an item - while on paper totally fine- seems ingame broken. Bigger Budgets allow for landslides. MoT is a prime example for that. The values will LP wise probably work out just fine. Sadly the armor regeneration system and the low TTK don't support the required playstyle anymore and i personally feel all % based LP costs require an adjustment since they are barely noticeable with the small pools they work on and now get compared to and measured against significant survivle options for those sparse LP.

    The truth behind itembudgeting is that in their database they have LP allocated to the Marks by their buffs and debuffs with a slight margin for over- or underbuffing them. A 60% stamina debuff is probably worth a negative 200 LP thats what it would cost to reduce it and those negative LP are most likely added in tankyness. If you would reduce movespeed on your version of the MoN like you suggested earlier (lets say for the for the sake of the argument a negative effect as grave as MoS buffs) you would probably look at a negative effect of ~380 LP (MoS costs 150 and has a negative effect of about 230 on it with the Armor debuff.)

    To add that up in numbers, your new Mark of Nurgle would only reduce our speed by -0.33/-0.15 and would need to give Nurgle tankyness (because thats what Papa Nurgle is known for) for the value of (150+380) 530 LP. The current Sigil of Nurgle has for the sake of comparison just from the defstats a value of 770 while the current MoN has defstats of 350 LP. So your new Mark of Nurgle would need to be even more tanky then the old one to compensate for a Movement speed debuff of the quality of the MoS. To bring the movespeed reduction in fair waters the reduction should be around -0.16 / -0.08 while still maintaining its current toughness and defence buffs - which would be as much of barely noticeable downside in my opinion.

    But let us be realistic here, the devs will never spend the next 5 items they produce to kit out and rebalance chaos marks like you suggested. I personally would rather see all chaos marks beeing valueable and unique or even have the "LSM" options as undivided (yes this includes all those HP and Armor trinkets) then to follow some wild ideas about how we should change our only viable wargear (without a solid idea for an replacement) to the point where it is actually nerfed - because you do not want to accept how item budgeting works.

    My Suggestion:
    Since you asked specifically for my opinion on how to fix them: They should have given them all the same base armor or hp or toughness in the ballpark of around 20 toughness or 30 health or 25 armor ontop of a minor god specific advantage vs disadvantage which is more or less cosmetic (based on their internal LP cost relations) while still leaving them viable for all classes.

    If they would then, in a second step which could theoretically come months later (and i personally dont believe they will for a long time) then invest time and manpower into reworking wargear 2 items for chaos (like they already have shown to be willing to some degree with the sorcerer and raptorspecific synergy items) they could add a bunch of items which require a mark in wargear slot 1 and could bring those flavoured buffs and debuffs for their own itembudget as synergies.

    To make it more clear: MoS in Wargear 1 gives a minor movement speed boost + those 20 toughness, wargear slot 2 offers an item "joyfull feet of slaanesh" with requires WG1 and offers now "the rest of the runspeed boost for an increased old penalty" for ~50-100 LP (increased old penalty to keep the budget even). Of course this would mean MoK, MoN and MoT would require completely new attributes. Since you don't want more tankoptions for the MoN related item, you dont want a HP debuff on MoT WG2 and MoK would if you stick to it at all, require the "no heal debuff" with alot of lifesteal added only on WG2.

    Basically the real Marks would be Wargearslot 2 and Wargearslot 1 would contain "Follower of xy" which is the light version of the Mark with default tankyness baked into it.
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