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Boltgun remowal = Support class doesn't mean "tactical flexibility"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Faeruin, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. PurpleHaze PrplHze Steam Early Access

    But your not counting all his other utilities with his other spells. Its a tunnel vision way to look at the flow between each faction and trying to look at class to class. Orks are able to stack poison from multi able angles, pain boy adding to the overall, and being a good mix of strong melee with a somewhat decent pistol if he picks targets. Need to look at the entire faction along with the skills and abilities of their support, and it'll be clearer how their roles are meant to be. I dont discount any of your argument, just that its not complete. And to be a Beacon Apoth costs alot of Lp making you sacrifice your dps or your armor. Making him less offensive as a whole either way, and already being part of this idea yall have about making his bolter unmodable.
  2. Drake De Molina Drake_De_Molina Steam Early Access

    Never had a problem to build my WP with full heal/buff capacity while keeping his dps (well not hard since the bolter is the overall source of dps). And for armor? Good lord he can't take it in the same time, just imagine with the vial armor buff. Would be the same as letting DA taking their gold armor and TLASC in the same time.
  3. PurpleHaze PrplHze Steam Early Access

    Well, mine runs Optimal Bolter, Survival vial, Relic armor, and armor trinket. I lose the mid heal, but gain offensive. By not having the Beacon, and lower armor class. Which in the end works out the same. Playing Red armor makes you only able to play in and out of cover, 1v1 being your hardest push power without a high level of skill. Relic/Vial combo allows me to be in the Simi-front where the healing needs to be done, Its a trade off, and has its purpose in different areas. And I agree its our strongest Meta, but close behind is the poison Narc ninja. Its surprisingly effective at downing people just as fast. But holds to the current melee may or may not be effective in the push.

    And also some people are just good, and thats its own factor. A extremely good player can run with no armor and be fine, just all a matter of when, how, why.
  4. I did, but i did not think they were worth to mention, because:

    Flickering Fire:
    I guess we all know this one is borked. It kills slower then a boltpistol. And as you need the MoT you got less health, so less time to hit with itApo-Bolter Wins.

    Stream of Corruption:
    AoE is nice, but rarely you have the chance to multipoison. It's slow, and you need to pump 75%+ into a target to kill it. Add to this, that any healing-beacon totally nullifies it's effect and it kills way slower then a bolter. Apo-bolter Wins.

    Lash of Slaneesh:
    This is the only spell that is situational better then a Bolter. With standart Warpcharge (100) You have 5 Shots of this beauty, land 1 Headshot and 1 Bodyshot -> Dead. Or land 3-4 Bodyshots -> Dead. But only in a range of 25 Metres, and you have to HIT them. A lost shot is way harder to compensate, as with the rapid fire-Bolter.
    I say, it's a draw between bolter and Lash, depends highly on skill.

    Highly situational. It's a slow-moving Plasmacannonshot. If you land it, good, if not, you suffer the same problems as any Plasmacannon devastator. And that beeing a Bolter at closer range -> Apo-Bolter Wins.

    It's the same to Flickering Fire. It's verry slow to apply damage, and has a limited Range on top of it. Not viable, especially not if you price it the same as a Bolter (200 LP) But still Apo-Bolter wins

    On top of that, The medicae-gernade and the medium Apo-Beacon cost both 150. That's 50 LP more then the Cheapest Spells (Force / Warp.Instability / Lash) and exactly the same as every other offensive Spell. So Sorcs who take it also pay in survivability with it :D

    Edit: Forgott Painboy.

    Painboy can have 1 Poison Grenade for 150LP. This thing can deny a good Area for a short duration. After that -> Gone. So either you are a one-trick pony, or you stay close to ammo boxes. On top of that, you sacrifice your Dok Bomb for it.

    Painboy can also have 3 Poison Grenades for 300LP, but 150LP less means less surivability. Now you are a 3 trick poney :D

    Still nothing that would come close to a Bolter... or?
  5. PurpleHaze PrplHze Steam Early Access

    But why are you still class to class, and not your power with-in the faction, you already have great Melee class's, A great heavy weapon, the same bolters we have. Your Support is meant as a battle tipper,..putting the correct flare to the moment to make the defence/attack work. Still holds that we have the most games to other factions yet we lose more then anyone else,..its just not making me think we have OP anything even Apothecaries.

    Last edit sorry,

    And its sounds like you could have so many loadouts meant to do a variety of things. I think including a chain-sword Apothocary. Im looking at 4 load-outs worth running?
  6. I thought we talk about Support classes alone? ^^
    Even if not, there is not so much synergy going on between different classes in EC that we really have to take the rest of the Classes into consideration.

    Synergy for me is something like the Teamfortress 2 medic and the Heavy. Heavy is a big bullet Shield that can protect the Medic, the medic can heal the Heavy back up while he does so = synergy.

    Or like in Overwatch: Bastion does a Shitton of Damage once in Sentry mode, but can't evade Shots any more. Orissa has low damage on her gun, but can deploy a shield right in front of Bastion to cancel his weakness out = Synergy.

    There are no real situations like that in EC, only standart tacticas like "Heal the one in the Front" or "Run while he is supressing". Sadly i have to say.

    Regarding Variety, Yes, At least the Sorc has Variety, the Warlock is a little more limited with that. But those are not all upgrades, just sidegrades. Flesh Circle heals everyone at once = AWESOME! But slower then foul Regen = Meh...

    Apothecary can equipp both group-heals and has a single-target super heal at once ^^
  7. PurpleHaze PrplHze Steam Early Access

    Glad we're getting to a good point in this, your starting to be on my page. But we already know we can't compare EC to other games. Its it own special Egg, Nathan said he was a huge Quake fan, and we see alot of influence from old shooters and planetside which he had a role in aswell. But back to the Apothocary. I do agree somewhat, but also take into consideration the over-all gist. Bolters are the main-stay on the LSM side. Not like you see Plasma Guns everywhere. Even still, i havn't seen games where only apothcaries won the day. As LSM we have to be running a good mix or its not going to work. Though now that we're to that point i wonder what a Beacon/Svial Squad with 1 tac to cap would do in games. Would lead to a intresting meta i dont think we've ever tried. Maybe thats our Final Op. The White tide cometh. Amusing. I highly doupt it. I still die, and faster then that tactical right beside me, with the same bolter. Healing Beacon or not, and now im a locked Animation for kill farming if they dont finish me off.

    Another thing ive had happen alot, Im going along,..see a Havoc/Autocannon. I'm as i said before,..Front line Apotho. Im Survival Buffed. I can down him with headshots faster then his raise to fire, and bullets can kill. Go to heal. See the Sorc come from behind cover, hit the heal on the havoc. Starting the stand-up. I have to now after heal vial, reload..shoot the havoc back to down'd. Attemp to gain ground on the Sorc while his heal is still getting the Havoc up. If i just only shoot the havoc. ill run outta ammo and the heal might still keep him alive. So now im still going to have to gain ground, and melee. Still putting me at the 2v1. With...if the sorc was good at doing, its draw me to a point where the Havoc can stand up outta my veiw with next to no life, so he can shoot me. Blind Side.

    Cqc bolter at the closest range sometimes can't outshoot the heal from the Sorc.
    I have never been able to Rez someone mid combat that it didnt killed us both.
  8. Yvelfir Yvelfir Arkhona Vanguard

    I'll never understand how someone can still honestly say that they believe the Apothecary is the worst support. You may see it as "oh look the Eldar players are talking shit about skill again", but if you're so bad at Apothecary that you think they're the worst, then you really need to get good.
    Reede likes this.
  9. As i said, do not take the Bolter away from the Apothecary, it's not only loreside established that they carry Bolters, but also in EC they should have Bolters! Don't get me wrong, im not saying they should take the Bolter away :D

    All i ask for is to buff the offensive Capabilities of the other supports as well... Spells, more various bombs for the Dok, or finally fixing the spells we have (Flickering Fire, Destructor etc.) so they are comparable to an Apothecary Bolter. Not better, but slightly weaker, to compensate for the fact that Apo is mostly a close-range healer.
    Just to clarify ;)


    The Situation you describe is quite familiar to me. He must have used the Foul-Regeneration as it's the only one who comes close to outheal damage. How others counter me as Sorc in that situation is simple, they ignore me, and focus down my patient.

    See it from my view:
    I have to keep me healing beam on my ally, otherwise he dies. As long as i do so, i can't do anything else, not even attacking you. And as long as you focus that body down, you are safe from me ;)

    While an Apothecary could throw his beacon, heal his ally AND attack me at the same time, i am bound to either kill you, or keep him alive.

    The mistake people make often enough is to go for me, instead of my patient. They see me healin, they hatin, they try to kill me. In that verry moment i attack them in melee once, somehow it's hardcoded into their brains that they have to D-Bash, enough time for me to heal my ally back up again while backpeddaling. Most of the time, they kill me afterwards, just to get shot in the back by the dude i have healed up, and that thankfull soul gets me up afterwards.

    It's also no shame to flee from that situation. I mean, it's 1 vs 2 after all. you would also run if you killed one guy, but a ttraitor instead of a sorc comes around, or?

    But that's of course just personal Experiance or opinions, not the eternal truth :)
    Trashed likes this.
  10. Kageshira Kageshira Active Member

    Question, because I don't play sorc but I suffer them, their lash or whip or whatever is called, it damages, disrupts (counters) attacks, how much it costs? because that shit seems like a slightly less damaging bolter pistol with infinite ammo and the ability to stop single enemies from attacking from time to time

    If you don't want infinite healing grenades and bolters on Apos, give the Apo similar stuff as the spells = infinite ammo distance heals and damaging stuff.

    Edit: Brother-Toaster, dunno if lag problem or other non related to the game mechanics problem, but it isn't the first time I fire at a fallen CSM (with a sorc healing him) and I can't kill him at all, not even throwing him grenades, or maybe there were more than one sorcerer healing him. This happens to me especially with Eldar, I win more outcomes killing the sorcerer first and then killing the dude who is just standing up.

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